My Alfa Romeo 33 rebuild - FIRST TIMER

[Brit01]

I don't know wich one expands more on hot, bucket or cam box.

I believe the cam box expands more as this is an alloy and the tappets are steel no?

The hotter the engine is, the more constant the ticking is after driving in heavy traffic.
If it's on the borderline then the ticking comes and goes.

So lets see with the new cam box that will be fitted in a week or so.

I'm using Valvoline 20w/50 semi for now (cheaper), until everything is bedding in properly and working as it should, then I'll change to Motul 15w/50 semi which is an excellent oil and a little pricey here.
Factory specs recommend 15w/50 for this car.
But I've seen many European Alfa owners use either 10w/40 or 10w/60 with no issues.
Depends on your climate of course.
10w/40 will be fine in the more northern countries.

I use 50 because of the hot summers here and very heavy traffic with junctions every 50 metres here in Montevideo!! In the city you are stopping and starting every 10-15 seconds!! The boxer doesn't like that.

Hmm real odd. I still thought you would found nothing but pieces in good condition.

Not sure what you mean by this sorry.
Your statement is misleading - it is saying that the pieces are in bad condition.
Well the tappet sleeves are in bad condition yes but everything else looks good.
Is that what you meant?

[Urbancamo]

^^ Sorry for the phrase, it was totally unreadable. What you said, was the thing i meant.

But we hope the noise will settle after rebuild.

[WhizzMan]

If the cam supports are worn oval, oil pressure that is supposed to pump up the tappet, will not be effective anymore. It will just leak in between the tappet and the cam support. The fact that the tappet can't be pumped up enough, is what will cause the noise, not the tilting of the tappet itself. Fiat TCs have solid tappets and are not effected by this.

Because this means you will need to manufacture your tappet bores much more precisely, I thought it would most likely not be worth it to reconstruct the bores. If you can get a place to sleeve this up in the correct type of aluminum and have them machine the correct groove and bore for the oil channel in it for less than shipping a cam support would cost you, by all means, go for it. If they mess up the height, width or diameter of the bore for the feeder hole, it will most likely not function optimally.

[Brit01]

If the cam supports are worn oval, oil pressure that is supposed to pump up the tappet, will not be effective anymore. It will just leak in between the tappet and the cam support. The fact that the tappet can't be pumped up enough, is what will cause the noise, not the tilting of the tappet itself

That makes sense whizzman thanks.

Well lets hope the used cam supports I found here this weekend are up to spec and not worn.

Much better than having them re-bored as you mentioned with the possible issues if they are not made properly.

You'll be surprised how long they keep engines going for in this country (they are experts at keeping engines alive. Bit like Cuba.
60 year old cars/trucks been re-bored and re-sleeved many times as they reach a million kms on the clock!!

If they had the strict MOT tests here it would wipe out 80% of the vehicles currently out on the roads seriously!
The used car industry is a thriving business due to the extremely high import taxes and running costs of new cars here.
A new car here in general costs double what it does in Europe hence the workshops keep the old cars going and going.

[WhizzMan]

I am sure they are very inventive and probably have a lot of skills you will struggle to find in more "developed" countries these days. I have no idea about pricing for their labor and how much import tax you will have to pay to get stuff in? I know that decent cam supports can be get for less than 30 euro's relatively easy in the Netherlands, where I live. Given that price and the price of labor here, nobody bothers to get theirs fixed.

[Brit01]

Yes I know a guy in the UK who sells me parts. He has cam boxes for 30 Euros also.
Just under 2 kilos so can be sent to me.

I'll be receiving the cam box tonight. My friend told me it looks much less worn than my current one which is good news.

Import taxes on anything under 50 USD are 60% but this is pretty random, usually if a company name is on the package. If it comes as a gift then we normally get away with it if the value states under 50 USD. Above then extra charges come into effect and ends up a fortune!

Importing entire cars is impossible though.

Yes people here do have certain special skills acquired over years of rebuilding old engines.

Keep you updated.

Regards

Chris

[Guy Croft]

"My friend told me it looks much less worn than my current one which is good news"

you didn't put a worn cam back in with new tappets did you..?

G

[Brit01]

No no don't worry Guy. That is something I know never to do, even new tappets with an old cam is not good. New for new.

We were talking about the cam support.

Unfortunately after cleaning all the oxidation and grime of the old piece it revealed many scratches around the oil holes. Obvious that foreign material had entered the passages/buckets and scratched them.

My current one is in much better condition visually.
Haven't been able to get a precise instrument tool yet.

But I may end up buying a cam support from UK after all if they appear worn. Bit frustrating.

[Guy Croft]

OK but I'm a bit lost by now!

As far as this thread - I'd like you to 'draw a line' under everything done before and now with head off (?) establish fundamental cause of noise. That will not just be a few scratches. It will be begin with a thorough visual of everything that moves under influence of the cam - up and down or rotational. Don't go mad with dimensioning things (not yet anyway) because noise due to adverse contact (in any mode) will always be accompanied by a witness mark.

You're very good with the camera so how about a good macro shot of each tappet and its housing and related cam lobe. Use MS paint on each photo to annotate the part and its position/number. Examine every working surface whether top/side.

Good idea?

G

[Brit01]

OK sure will do.

I'll try to take some photos tonight of the current cams/cam support buckets. Also the spare I was given.
I have the afternoon off on Friday to go downtown if measurement are required to be taken in a workshop. Have to collect the new head gasket anyway in the same area.

Do want you shots of the old and new lobes?
Or just all new ones as the noise is evident even with the new parts.
Only part that wasn't changed or measured accurately was the tappet bucket in the cam box.

[Guy Croft]

You choose if in doubt post.

Just remember there must be a cause and it must not go back together till you have traced it. If you don't see it in the cam and tappets/housings look elsewhere, it must be somewhere. Apart from visual use your fingertip and trace over all the parts, quickest way to find a 'dud' cam I know of, sharp edges on the flanks and lobe going 'square'.

G

[Brit01]

I know before I post the pics new lobes are perfect luckily. You will see with the micro shots.
Valves are good, compression good, new tappets, lobes good.

Yes it must be coming from somewhere and is really getting to me. At least I know it's located around the far left of the right cam box.

If all look ok visually then the next step for me is to measure more accurately the tappets housings and cam box bearings in a workshop.

Keep tuned for my photos.

Thanks for you assistance as always. We will get to the bottom of this.

[Guy Croft]

my edit - my word sensor doesn't allow words like c-r-a-z-y..

G

[Guy Croft]

very often just offering up the part to its housing is enough to spot a problem. Oil needs about 1-2thou clearance - you could feel excessive clearance by rocking or pulling the part in its housing by hand.

G

[Brit01]

Yes the width of the bucket should be between 35mm - 35.025mm. Very small allowance.

Argentina have some new unused cam boxes but at a price of course. 250 USD!
My UK seller has some good used ones for 30 USD!

But would be nice to have a NOS. All bearings and buckets perfect out of the factory.
That would certainly eliminate all possibilities of bearing intolerances/wear especially as I have new OE cams to go with it.

Very very tempting indeed.