Volumex Set Up Question

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Andy007
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Volumex Set Up Question

Post by Andy007 » January 25th, 2007, 10:38 am

I have a Lancia Beta Volumex engine and will fit this into my 1985 Pininfarina Spider. Changing Oil Sump and the exhaust cam box for using Distributor, straight thru exhaust system with one silencer is installed.
I `ll build a fast road spider , my plan is to get 170 - 180 hp with modifications..
My Questions : Where can i get parts to change the supercharger gear ratio, does anyone know the best gear ratio ( O.E. is 29 / 22 )?

Which are good cams for this project ? Is it good to retard the exhaust cam because of the volumex supercharger ? Any Advises for Duration, Peak timing, Valve lift ?

Does anyone know the basic ignition time, for example at 5000 U/min ?

Whats about other Modifikations, Head etc .. ?

The Weber 45DCOE with GC inlet is on my List when the engine is completed....

Greets Andy 007

cstorry
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spider volumex owner comments

Post by cstorry » January 25th, 2007, 5:33 pm

Hi Andy,

Sounds like a fun project. I own an original 124 volumex spider and am also in the process of making a duplicate for more regular use. I can tell you there are many more changes that came along with the volumex engine in that car. Some, like a different brake booster and master cylinder were necessary for performance improvement to match the higher spec engine but also for fit. The compressor and carb will not fit with the stock 124 booster/master cylinder.

Also you will find many other difficulties when starting with the Beta setup such as the lower compressor mounting bracket from the Beta will interfere with the 124 engine mount - remember the 124 engine is mounted longitudinally while the Beta was transverse. This also means changing from the Beta cam boxes to those of a 124 for proper oil drainage. In addition the carb and intake manifold on the 124 vx is also different from the Beta vx and are extremely rare to find.

The 29/22 was stock for the early Betas, apparently a different pulley arrangement entirely was used in late models. The stock ratio on the 124 is 29/21 which offers a slight increase in performance. Overdrive kits are available but some require changing only the compressor pulley while others require both.

Other parts like the pistons, cams, valves are all the same as far as I know and are reasonable as stock but can be improved upon.

I don't say these things to discourage you but only as one who is going through the process as well.

I would also welcome performance improvement suggestions from Guy and others but be aware that the 124 engine bay has quite different constraints from any of the Beta VXs.

regards
Chuck

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Post by Guy Croft » January 26th, 2007, 9:08 am

I get asked a lot about conversions. Most go nowhere. So the rule has been for some time, that I will offer guidance on as many aspects as I can once the engine is out and stripped but not before.

Chuck's advice is very helpful. I'd simply note that most of the issues can be dealt with by a bit of care and attention by the owner and guidance from here. We can run the Beta Vx intake, but we'd likely need a special oil filter housing lower bracket arrangement and blower drive.
Different (faster) pulley drives are something I absolutely do not advise on (this being GC Q&A I do reserve some rights!) . I get enough Vx units to overhaul and fix, they are rare, I don't agree with spinning them any faster than absolutely necessary both from a performance and reliability point of view.

When the old engine is out of the engine bay and the replacement units stripped for overhaul and some photos published, I'll follow up. I'd not be in favour of simply transplanting the Vx unit into the car 'as-is'. These things are 30+ years old and they need/deserve a full, careful overhaul. If you want to do it 'properly'.

GC

Andy007
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Volumex Set Up

Post by Andy007 » January 26th, 2007, 10:41 am

Hello Chuck, Hello GC,
Thanks for the fast replies. Now the engine is stripped...

At first the most important : The car get 284mm front brake rotors and calipers of a Fiat Coupe, master cylinder changed to 22mm.

The problem with the cam boxes is finished, because i have 3 Fiat engines on stock. So i can change the cam boxes for using the upper positioned distributor, the same with the oil pump and oil sump.

I agree, the most important problems are the oil filter bracket and the blower drive....
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Post by Guy Croft » January 26th, 2007, 11:16 am

Brilliant!

More to follow as soon as I have minute.

GC

cstorry
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A mounting bracket idea

Post by cstorry » January 27th, 2007, 3:44 am

Hi Andy,

I'll share an idea I have been thinking about...

In the first picture you see the Beta mounting bracket. I haven't shown that mated to a 124 block but believe me that oil filter entension will interfere with the 124 engine mount.

In the second picture you will see the proper 124 compressor mounting bracket. As far as I can tell it mounts the compressor in exactly the same place but has a different arrangement for the oil filter and the supercharger belt tensioner.

In the 3rd picture you see how I modified the Beta mount by cutting off 2 problem areas. The oilways that went to the filter are plugged with grub screws and 2 holes drilled to imitate the 2 liter block oil system.

So my question is - is there any reason why I shouldn't be able to use the normal 124 oil filter block mounted via the modified beta bracket ? It'll need longer bolts but I think it should work.

I haven't looked into the tensioner yet but that's also a different arrangement between the Beta and 124.

Hopefully that's helpful ?

regards
Chuck
Attachments
beta mount.jpg
Stock Beta VX mounting bracket
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124 mount.jpg
Stock 124 VX mounting bracket
124 mount.jpg (48.84 KiB) Viewed 11395 times
beta mod.jpg
Modified Beta bracket
- 3 cuts and 2 holes drilled
beta mod.jpg (38.47 KiB) Viewed 11395 times
beta mod2.jpg
Modified Beta bracket with stock 124 oil filter bracket
beta mod2.jpg (48.65 KiB) Viewed 11397 times

cstorry
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Post by cstorry » January 27th, 2007, 3:49 am

Sorry but it looks like the order of the pictures got mixed up - but at least they are titled so should be pretty clear.

I see from your pics that you have already removed one of the offending chunks : )

Chuck

Andy007
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Volumex Set Up Question

Post by Andy007 » January 27th, 2007, 4:21 pm

Hi Chuck,

at first thanks for your detailled photos. I have never seen a 124 VX bracket before , so your photos are very helpfully for me.

I think about your ideas to modify the bracket in the way your photos shown, because its a "mission impossible" to get the original 124 VX oil filter to compressor bracket... Mysterious, because i thought here in germany are the most of the 124 VX Spiders...

Do you have some pics and measures of the VX belt tensioner ? I think my job is to copy the tensioner...

An Idea of me : I have two different oil filter brackets for choosing . One like on your pictures and one made of alloy steel. I think about to make a "T" on the alloy oil filter bracket and the blower, so that i can fit the tensioner on the right place.

But i think your solution is the better one....

So finally one question, because my english is too bad, but i wanna laugh with you together. Could you explain to me including the smily :

I see from your pics that you have already removed one of the offending chunks : )

regards Andy
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Post by Guy Croft » January 27th, 2007, 6:22 pm

To mount the blower you either need one for those OE mountings - or make your own. If you make your own think about this:

It definitely doesn't need to be one of those huge/awful cast iron monstrosities, most of the load is taken on the inlet manifold and top struts.

To be honest guys, the OE thing is so rigid I really believe that you could do away with the lower bracket altogether... I have thought this for a long time. I mean, it's bolted at 6 points to the inlet manifold in the photo, braced by steel struts at the top.. does it need the lower mountings? Never had the courage to do it but I think it would be totally fine. I think the OE thing is over-engineered.

Maybe someone has tried it that way, maybe I'm wrong and the casing distorts. I know how well-informed some members are..!

A home made replica? Well, all it needs is a steel or alloy plate behind the 124 oil filter housing (or nicer still a GC remote filter take-off plate) with struts to the blower casing to mount to the M10 bolt holes.

My advice is don't go chasing the OE things. Make life easy, I can see you are skilled with these things. I have done this (pre-digital camera) several times:
For a direct drive belt from the crank blower belt tensioner all you need is say a a 4-5mm thick steel plate bolted to the front casing of the blower housing (just use 2 longer bolts or studs).
On that mount a 124 type cam tensioner pulley baseplate and stud and a wide Vx tensioner pulley as seen below (on the Beta it has a long belt and drives the PAS too), sleeve the tensioner pulley so the 1" belt doesn't run off. There are no belt guides on the crank drive pulley and the Vx front pulley.
In fact I have run a 3/4" belt to drive the blower. unacceptable? No! Surprisingly one of my clients (Pete Luxford) has run a 3/4" wide 93T 3/8" automotive pitch trapezoidal belt for years on his 220bhp 2 liter Vx 8v GC engined Stratos replica, never stripped the teeth.

As far as cams go - I make cams so I'll suggest mine if you have no objection. if you go for something else check with me first and certainly take my advice on jetting - GC 3A or 2B inlet, OE Vx exhaust, competition springs, sidedraft 40 DCOE if head not flowed, 45 DCOE if fully developed. The carb should be bolted direct to the blower intake with an adaptor plate with two big holes in it! A ram pipe with generous roll back radius is a MUST.

You could try race inlet and ex cams if you're feeling really brave, go for the famous supercharged 'blow-down' effect and fantastic cylinder purging (big bhp gain at high rpm it is said), never, again, had the courage to experiment with that. The Weber is best because Dellorto are out of production, Webers are cheaper than they have been for years; use the Wecon dual cable linkage too, top or underside mounted. make sure, if using top mounted - it clears the bonnet.

Big bore 4-1 exhaust 36" long, matched primaries, 2 of George Polley's fabulous NHRA silencers, standard distributor works fine, Vx has the same curve, no boost retard needed; The relatively low pressure but high flow Facet Silver Top comp spec fuel pump with direct feed, no regulator. You'll need my help with main casing vent pipes, save that for later.

You'll need a a low temperature in-head thermostat (74 deg), an extra radiator core (alloy rad is best, someone lately posted a picture of a beautiful item made by a Fiat firm in the USA, cannot find the link) and 15 row oil cooler too, race oil, accumulator, plus careful attention to intake ducting. You must take in underhood warm air in winter (or at least below 12 deg C) or you'll get terrible carb icing problems, and cool ambient air from atmosphere in summer.

Now - that increased drive pulley for the Vx. I wish fervently I had NEVER published it in my workshop manual. The Vx with sidedraft carb, set up as above is so stratospherically powerful it does NOT need it.
All it does really is give way too much torque at low rpm on the 'otherwise' tuned motor, and it offers the real risk of the rotors going out of phase under the massive inertial loads it's subjected too. Thos rotors are only held in phase by friction (check out the info in GC V/W). If it gets damaged - where do you get a spare blower these days?
The methanol-vintage MG enthusiasts (bless them) have wrecked most of the spare ones around. Nuff said..

How does that sound? Exciting? Helpful for now I hope.

GC
Attachments
Vx Beta in man fitted.jpg
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Beta Vx front  end view with blower .JPG
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Last edited by Guy Croft on January 28th, 2007, 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

cstorry
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smiley

Post by cstorry » January 28th, 2007, 4:57 am

Hi Andy

The smiley was because to make an original Beta mounting bracket into one for the 124 you need to cut off two pieces. For some reason your bracket already has one of those pieces cut off. This means you are already half way there but didn't even know it.

I have attached a picture of the proper 124 tensioner bearing bracket. I do not think that the Beta arm will be in the right piece so I expect to have to cut it off too but I have not tried to fit it yet.

regards
Chuck
Attachments
124 tensioner.jpg
124 tensioner.jpg (45.37 KiB) Viewed 11358 times

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Post by cstorry » January 28th, 2007, 5:10 am

I like Guy's idea about his oil takeoff plate. If you decided to cut a bracket like I did starting from the Beta one then Guy's oil takeoff plate would provide a perfect opportunity to feed the oil cooler and a remote filter. The original uses a thermostatically controlled sandwitch plate between the bracket and the filter. From there the oil cooler is plumbed. The simply moves the filter down a little lower and it is already very exposed under the car so not the best situation.

Just as a note, on the 124 the crank pulley that drives the compressor does actually have an outer lip to keep the belt on. I believe that inner and outer lips are on the power steering pump pulley on the Beta which as Guy mentions is also driven by the compressor belt in the Beta setup - hence the much longer belt and different tensioner arrangement.

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Post by Guy Croft » January 28th, 2007, 9:03 am

Well done Chuck,

you're putting forward some really good info there.

Yes, that 124 crank pulley flange, I saw one owned by Dave Beale but although he probably told me about it's being from the 124 it did not sink in!

GC

Andy007
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Volumex Set Up

Post by Andy007 » January 29th, 2007, 3:26 pm

At first thanks at Chuck and GC for the informations....I think i will fit the blower without the lower steel bracket and made two brackets of alloy from 124 oil filter bracket to the blower, installing the alternator on the right side of the engine...

But at first i overhole the block and the head to make a good, solid fast road engine. Then the rest like the supercharger, alternator and so on...

It takes a little bit of time and i have to look at my budget...because my meaning is : all or nothing, i can not install the engine like it is...

Its minimum 25 years old, at first checking all, measure, balancing and so on...

Its not nessesary for me to drive "tomorrow" with the VX engine and i think you both agree to this statement..

So i come back to this very helpfull thread when my missions on block and head were finished , OK ?

Greets Andy007

cstorry
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Post by cstorry » January 29th, 2007, 5:51 pm

Sure Andy - I look forward to some info from you in the future about your progress.

Never supercharge a tired engine. I think you should also consider an oil cooler even if you go with a homemade compressor mounting.

Can you email me at cstorry@forzavx.com

I would still like to chat with you about the brake booster/master cylinder alternatives you found.

regards
Chuck

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Volumex Set Up Questions

Post by tmvolumex » January 31st, 2007, 10:59 pm

I have built 2 different Volumex engines for one of my Lancia Scorpions in the past 15 years. The first engine utilized the stock 1756 cc block that was in the car when I bought it. (Lancia Scorpions came stock with a 1756cc engine; Montecarlos came with 2 liter engines). To the 1756 block I added a Volumex supercharger, Weber 40 DCOE carb, Alquati 40-80 intake and exhaust cams, an Anza header and quad Anza exhaust. I also installed 36mm sodium filled exhaust valves, Abarth 1mm larger stainless intake valves and ported the head. I retained the stock 8 to 1 compression ratio. I also retained the stock supercharger drive ratio, because the standard drive ratio, with 40-80 cams, still delivered 8.5 lbs of boost on the 1756 cc engine. This boost level was the highest I could run on California highest grade octane pump gas. This engine is pictured in Guy Crofts tuning book on several pages, it developed 175 hp. Over a period of 11 years I put 150,000 miles on this engine. I finally retired this engine and replaced it with a 2 liter Volumex built similar to the 1756.

My 2 liter VX has an increased supercharger drive ratio, adjustable cam wheels, 8.5 to 1 compression, GC / MRI ported head, bigger valves, a really BIG custom 4-2-1 header (it is a copy of a Lancia 037 Stradle style header), Anza quad exhaust, 40-80 cams, Crane multispark ignition with rev limiter and boost retard, K&N air filter and a few other tweaks. HP on this engine is over 200.

It is my daily driver as was the 1756cc engine. Yes, it's 'old school' and I like it that way. It is reliable, gets good gas mileage (I installed a VX transaxle, 3,000 RPM at 70 MPH in 5th). It's extremely fast and makes a great engine sounds when on boost. I have 40,000 miles on the 2 liter VX engine and it is still running strong.

Tom McGaffigan

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