I recall somebody posting a dyno chart on here a while back, and I noticed at the time they were using an Autronic analyzer. Perhaps in Italy? It would be interesting to get their opinion of it. I know GM purchased 200 units last year. So they must think they're ok.
edit: I found it, ACE-GREG in this thread; viewtopic.php?t=80
'Chips' - biggest engine problem by far - discuss
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petert
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Guy Croft
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Steve, hi
I cannot speak really for markets outside the UK, not in detail naturally, though people all over the world do write to me and ring me every day, sometimes here regarding engine setups and fuel systems.
I don't want to get into detailed costs, that's far too risky, but comparatively speaking let's look a bit closer at the general issues that relate to this:
1. Carbs won't tune themselves, sure, but calibration is most usually just jets, chokes, emulsion tubes in the main and a carb is inherently responsive to load because it gives the venturis will deliver fuel according to airflow, and yes whilst some FI systems can do that too, with a carb, that load response comes as standard. Whereas with FI it is a cost that has to be 'built-in'.
2. Calibration - I can give the jetting for many, many applications by 'word of mouth', or here, as I have frequently demonstrated, incl where an owner has re-jigged his engine with different cams etc., not much cost there. Most of my clients running race carbs never needed to go to a dyno at all. FI calibration (as far as I can tell) currently always requires a mapping expert at some stage, not just a few tools, and if the system cannot interpret the new fuel demand, it has to be remapped or it is just not going to deliver an optimised result. I can't stress this enough, optimised - to me - means the absolute limit of power that the engine hardware will give. If this is not done, the whole package is a complete and utter waste of money compared with a carb setup (and probably a waster of fuel too).
3. A carb needs a limited range of air correctors and main jets, and I've spent hundreds of hours doing on-dyno calibration so I know exactly how quick it is to optimise. I've routinely done jet swaps and dyno reruns in under 3 minutes. And one main jet caters for the entire load spectrum from say, 3500 to, well, as high as you want to go. Sure, an electronic FI system will - if set up right, can yield very real torque enhancement and power gain, but it can require hundreds of ignition and fuel load sites to be as optimised. This can take days - and if the mapping is throttle position/rpm dependent it can only be done with extreme accuracy on a bench dyno. You cannot hold a fixed rpm/throttle position on a rolling road. To a far, far greater extent than carb tuning, so much depends on the skill and experience and integrity of the guy mapping the thing up. And we all know that can be er, limited...
4. Hardware. Sorry to shoot you down, but there is no comparison between the cost of converting to a pair of race carbs and a throttle body FI setup. For race carbs the ancillary part cost is minimal (and common to FI, linkage, filter), whereas for FI on throttle bodies the list is really quite long and there is usually quite a confusing choice of add-ons. I do costings all the time on setups, the two fuel systems have approximate parity only insofar as a pair of bare throttle bodies cost around the same as a pair of DCOEs, there the parity ends abruptly, and sourcing the components is nowhere as easy.
5. Does a chip you buy 'off the shelf' actually deliver the fuelling and ignition that you need? Is it value for money? Rarely. I know more than I am prepared to disclose here about what goes on in that business. Will the injectors and fuel pump need changing too? People don't understand these things and how to get the answers, sorry, not in the UK anyhow. I'm afraid that advice like that falls strongly in the category of 'knowledge is power (read ‚£‚£‚£). Assuming the engine and its exhaust etc has been prepared right, a carb - if sold by a reputable dealer like a Weber agent - and jetted correctly will always deliver.
Again I say: There is insufficient visibility and nowhere near enough free 'how-to' knowledge regarding the suitability and capability of ecu and FI upgrades. Either as a 'chip' - where it is to be substituted into an existing OE style FI system, or with a throttle body setup. Except as I said earlier where the ecu is sold as part of a proven tuning package. Again I say, when someone finally builds a 'plug and play' FI system I shall be all for it.
GC
I cannot speak really for markets outside the UK, not in detail naturally, though people all over the world do write to me and ring me every day, sometimes here regarding engine setups and fuel systems.
I don't want to get into detailed costs, that's far too risky, but comparatively speaking let's look a bit closer at the general issues that relate to this:
1. Carbs won't tune themselves, sure, but calibration is most usually just jets, chokes, emulsion tubes in the main and a carb is inherently responsive to load because it gives the venturis will deliver fuel according to airflow, and yes whilst some FI systems can do that too, with a carb, that load response comes as standard. Whereas with FI it is a cost that has to be 'built-in'.
2. Calibration - I can give the jetting for many, many applications by 'word of mouth', or here, as I have frequently demonstrated, incl where an owner has re-jigged his engine with different cams etc., not much cost there. Most of my clients running race carbs never needed to go to a dyno at all. FI calibration (as far as I can tell) currently always requires a mapping expert at some stage, not just a few tools, and if the system cannot interpret the new fuel demand, it has to be remapped or it is just not going to deliver an optimised result. I can't stress this enough, optimised - to me - means the absolute limit of power that the engine hardware will give. If this is not done, the whole package is a complete and utter waste of money compared with a carb setup (and probably a waster of fuel too).
3. A carb needs a limited range of air correctors and main jets, and I've spent hundreds of hours doing on-dyno calibration so I know exactly how quick it is to optimise. I've routinely done jet swaps and dyno reruns in under 3 minutes. And one main jet caters for the entire load spectrum from say, 3500 to, well, as high as you want to go. Sure, an electronic FI system will - if set up right, can yield very real torque enhancement and power gain, but it can require hundreds of ignition and fuel load sites to be as optimised. This can take days - and if the mapping is throttle position/rpm dependent it can only be done with extreme accuracy on a bench dyno. You cannot hold a fixed rpm/throttle position on a rolling road. To a far, far greater extent than carb tuning, so much depends on the skill and experience and integrity of the guy mapping the thing up. And we all know that can be er, limited...
4. Hardware. Sorry to shoot you down, but there is no comparison between the cost of converting to a pair of race carbs and a throttle body FI setup. For race carbs the ancillary part cost is minimal (and common to FI, linkage, filter), whereas for FI on throttle bodies the list is really quite long and there is usually quite a confusing choice of add-ons. I do costings all the time on setups, the two fuel systems have approximate parity only insofar as a pair of bare throttle bodies cost around the same as a pair of DCOEs, there the parity ends abruptly, and sourcing the components is nowhere as easy.
5. Does a chip you buy 'off the shelf' actually deliver the fuelling and ignition that you need? Is it value for money? Rarely. I know more than I am prepared to disclose here about what goes on in that business. Will the injectors and fuel pump need changing too? People don't understand these things and how to get the answers, sorry, not in the UK anyhow. I'm afraid that advice like that falls strongly in the category of 'knowledge is power (read ‚£‚£‚£). Assuming the engine and its exhaust etc has been prepared right, a carb - if sold by a reputable dealer like a Weber agent - and jetted correctly will always deliver.
Again I say: There is insufficient visibility and nowhere near enough free 'how-to' knowledge regarding the suitability and capability of ecu and FI upgrades. Either as a 'chip' - where it is to be substituted into an existing OE style FI system, or with a throttle body setup. Except as I said earlier where the ecu is sold as part of a proven tuning package. Again I say, when someone finally builds a 'plug and play' FI system I shall be all for it.
GC
Last edited by Guy Croft on October 22nd, 2006, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ACE-GREG
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How could i help regarding Autronic products?petert wrote:I recall somebody posting a dyno chart on here a while back, and I noticed at the time they were using an Autronic analyzer. Perhaps in Italy? It would be interesting to get their opinion of it. I know GM purchased 200 units last year. So they must think they're ok.
edit: I found it, ACE-GREG in this thread; viewtopic.php?t=80
p.s We are in Greece
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Guy Croft
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Hi Greg
please see:
http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=465
Post there about Autronic if you fancy it, I would like to build a series of posts on the different systems available. I'd like to display as much practical information as possible without infringing confidentiality or copyright, give potential users an informed choice on what is out there.
If you're expert with Autronic it might be good promotion for you.
GC
please see:
http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=465
Post there about Autronic if you fancy it, I would like to build a series of posts on the different systems available. I'd like to display as much practical information as possible without infringing confidentiality or copyright, give potential users an informed choice on what is out there.
If you're expert with Autronic it might be good promotion for you.
GC
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ACE-GREG
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Snakeman
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Just to add my 5 pence worth...
As said earlier in this thread motor manufacturers spend tens of thousands of man hours and millions of dollars developing good, reliable and reproducible engine management ECU's. Anyone outside this fold trying to do the same thing will be 'winging it'.
The main benefit of aftermarket EFI over carbs is the mid range gains. There is little or no benefit at WOT
I like to think I know enough to be annoying about cars. But despite my ‹Å“knowledge¢ž¢, last year I had problems with misfires on my Montecarlo that without the help of Andy at OMEX and Troy at Northampton Motor Sport would have remained unresolved.
I am now happy with the car and the EFI, but just in case, I run a permanent wideband O2 reader on the dash to constantly monitor the AFR.... Call it healthy paranoia. I am also looking to find a reasonably priced knock monitor
Aftermarket Chips, ECUs etc are OK in the right hands but not always a good bolt on goodie. People who have little or no knowledge of injection and try to throw a system together without the assistance of the pro¢ž¢s and a good rolling road will almost certainly have problems.
On a lighter note, I once worked with a Japanese engine management developer when a high performance 4X4 vehicle had some‚¦.problems (no names but it was the main rival to the Integrale). At the time we needed to complete some 'on road' diagnosis when he became very nervous about going out in the car. We later found out he had never been out in, let alone driven the car which he developed the ECU for!
Over and out‚¦
Geoff
As said earlier in this thread motor manufacturers spend tens of thousands of man hours and millions of dollars developing good, reliable and reproducible engine management ECU's. Anyone outside this fold trying to do the same thing will be 'winging it'.
The main benefit of aftermarket EFI over carbs is the mid range gains. There is little or no benefit at WOT
I like to think I know enough to be annoying about cars. But despite my ‹Å“knowledge¢ž¢, last year I had problems with misfires on my Montecarlo that without the help of Andy at OMEX and Troy at Northampton Motor Sport would have remained unresolved.
I am now happy with the car and the EFI, but just in case, I run a permanent wideband O2 reader on the dash to constantly monitor the AFR.... Call it healthy paranoia. I am also looking to find a reasonably priced knock monitor
Aftermarket Chips, ECUs etc are OK in the right hands but not always a good bolt on goodie. People who have little or no knowledge of injection and try to throw a system together without the assistance of the pro¢ž¢s and a good rolling road will almost certainly have problems.
On a lighter note, I once worked with a Japanese engine management developer when a high performance 4X4 vehicle had some‚¦.problems (no names but it was the main rival to the Integrale). At the time we needed to complete some 'on road' diagnosis when he became very nervous about going out in the car. We later found out he had never been out in, let alone driven the car which he developed the ECU for!
Over and out‚¦
Geoff
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Fahrell
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I totally agree with you Snakeman, perhaps a little bit more radical. even in mid-range I couldn't find gains over the original factory ecu maps.
That's why I use a extra injector/timing retard controller, completely separated from the main motronic factory default fi system... when I'm not using the extra pressure, it remains off. Over a predetermined pressure, it begins to supply extra fuel and timing retard, but all the engine original mapping still remain working, the KS, TPS, MAS, O2 sensor, etc...
Here in Brasil the ECU remapping frenzy is also a complete madness. And I really don't know how a specialized market like the modified cars is, became so confident in this miraculous HP given by ECU remmaping/Dyno owners.
It's easy to see here audis a3 180hp and marea fivetech turbo "remmaped" for over "400hp" being beaten by simple gol VW 2.0 turbo, solex carbureted, spark timing locked, a total mess, on the drag strip...
excuse my poor english... I'm learning...
That's why I use a extra injector/timing retard controller, completely separated from the main motronic factory default fi system... when I'm not using the extra pressure, it remains off. Over a predetermined pressure, it begins to supply extra fuel and timing retard, but all the engine original mapping still remain working, the KS, TPS, MAS, O2 sensor, etc...
Here in Brasil the ECU remapping frenzy is also a complete madness. And I really don't know how a specialized market like the modified cars is, became so confident in this miraculous HP given by ECU remmaping/Dyno owners.
It's easy to see here audis a3 180hp and marea fivetech turbo "remmaped" for over "400hp" being beaten by simple gol VW 2.0 turbo, solex carbureted, spark timing locked, a total mess, on the drag strip...
excuse my poor english... I'm learning...
Andr’‚© Farkatt
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