My Alfa Romeo 33 rebuild - FIRST TIMER

[timinator]

Hi Brit01,

I don't know what your start procedure is on a new engine but here are a few things I think help.

Use a remote start button so you can stand over the engine while you are starting it.

Fill the engine with hot water. No antifreeze until all systems are working properly.

Just before you are ready to make your first attempt to start the engine pull the spark plugs out, disable ignition, and crank the engine with the starter for about 15 seconds. Sometimes things present themselves that you need to address before the engine is running.

A big fan in front of the car can make everything go better.

Have someone else present that can follow directions without panicking.

Garden hose if possible. Good luck.

Tim

[Brit01]

Thanks Tim.

Why no antifreeze/anticorrosive(surely if the engine gets hot then the water gets to near boiling point)? I added 5 litres of plain distilled water first to check for leaks over 2 days, had 1 small one but fixed and then topped up with antifreeze/anticorrosive agent.

Was planning to fill first all oil galleries with oil manually first.
Then prime 2 or 3 times for 7/8 seconds each time with starter motor (without plugs and fuel pump disconnected) until a good pressure is shown on the gauge.

Then fit air filter, prime carbs and fuel pump with petrol, fit plugs and start her up (these engines always need some nursing with the throttle pedal especially when cold or have been just rebuilt - so a remote switch wouldn't work very well), rev to 2-2500 rpm or so and fix the pedal with my heavy tool box so I can inspect the engine carefully while it's running.

First thing I'll check are the fuel connections before the engine gets hot of course once I get out of the car.

I'll be close to the ignition to switch off is any issues occur. Key is on the left side.(LHD also)
No one to help I'm afraid. Got this far alone, I'll manage the start up.

Outside temp is pretty cool, around 10 degrees so don't think I'll have any overheating issues - it always helps to turn the cabin heater on if things get a little hot.

The garage has fire extinguishers handy. Water on burning oil or fuel is not such a good idea.

thank you

I don't know what your start procedure is on a new engine but here are a few things I think help.

Use a remote start button so you can stand over the engine while you are starting it.

Fill the engine with hot water. No antifreeze until all systems are working properly.

Just before you are ready to make your first attempt to start the engine pull the spark plugs out, disable ignition, and crank the engine with the starter for about 15 seconds. Sometimes things present themselves that you need to address before the engine is running.

A big fan in front of the car can make everything go better.

Have someone else present that can follow directions without panicking.

Garden hose if possible. Good luck.

[timinator]

Hi Brit01,

I should have given an explanation for what I posted previously. No antifreeze for several reasons. When you build up pressure in the cooling system after the engine is at operating temperature is when leaks appear. Cleanup with water is easy. Antifreeze less so, and now one would need more antifreeze. Some small leaks can be better dealt with when the area is not contaminated with glycol. Water actually cools better than antifreeze. Later just drain the water and refill with your antifreeze mix.

Always prime the oil system by driving the oil pump and be sure to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Do not trust the gauge in the car. I have witnessed plenty of problems that could have been handled easily if the engine had been primed properly before installing it in the car. I was not suggesting using the starter to prime the engine oil system. I was referring to things like the fan blade hitting the shroud, or loose bolts attaching pulleys or brackets or whatever.

The remote starter button is so you can move the throttle by hand because you will be standing next to the carbs. You can also throw a rag on the carb if the engine back fires and starts a fire in the intake system. You can also move the distributor will the engine is cranking.

The fan is because of the noxious fumes you will be in contact with after the engine starts to run and create heat. Paint, exhaust, and off gassing sealants just to name a few of the things that are not good to breathe.

The garden hose is not in case of fire. It is for cooling the floor of the car where the exhaust pipe contacts it and is melting the carpet, for cooling your arm after the radiator hose blows off and boiling water scalds it, for when you realize that the cooling system was not really full, for washing the gasoline from under the car when you discover the gas tank does have a return line...

Good luck tomorrow.

Tim

[Brit01]

Tim,

Valid point with the antifreeze. Thanks.
I haven't put all the antifreeze in yet, i'ts pretty weak at the moment.

I can't prime the engine with just the oil pump. It's an Alfa boxer where the pump is driven off a worm gear from the crankshaft.
I plan to pump oil up the channels ahead of the filter (from the oil pressure warning sensor fitting) by a hand pump to fill the cams (most of the oil pours out when you put them on the block as it's a flat four),
Also to pour oil down the main oil channel downstream of the filter to fill the oil pump chamber. Every way possible by hand before using the starter motor.

After this I will use the starter motor to get the pressure up more, as GC recommended, shots of 7/8 seconds no more than 20.
I have a good new aftermarket pressure sensor and gauge, also a Bosch wideband lambda and digital gauge to see the AFR. Very useful for engines with dual carbs.

Then connect everything and fire the baby up.

I will have some wet rags on hand as you suggest for backfires but the great thing about the Alfa is the 90 degree air intakes and air filter box. Any backfires have no risk.
I will have these on for start up.

Noxious fumes: kind of used to that in my garage, it's a strange place here in Uruguay, not many places to park so we rent out parking places in warehouses along with 50-100 other cars. Constant movement of cars and fuel of fumes!!
Welll there's a good airflow through either side of the warehouse anyway. Lol
I imagine I'll get some smoke off the manifolds from the oil leaked!

Chris

I should have given an explanation for what I posted previously. No antifreeze for several reasons. When you build up pressure in the cooling system after the engine is at operating temperature is when leaks appear. Cleanup with water is easy. Antifreeze less so, and now one would need more antifreeze. Some small leaks can be better dealt with when the area is not contaminated with glycol. Water actually cools better than antifreeze. Later just drain the water and refill with your antifreeze mix.

Always prime the oil system by driving the oil pump and be sure to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Do not trust the gauge in the car. I have witnessed plenty of problems that could have been handled easily if the engine had been primed properly before installing it in the car. I was not suggesting using the starter to prime the engine oil system. I was referring to things like the fan blade hitting the shroud, or loose bolts attaching pulleys or brackets or whatever.

The remote starter button is so you can move the throttle by hand because you will be standing next to the carbs. You can also throw a rag on the carb if the engine back fires and starts a fire in the intake system. You can also move the distributor will the engine is cranking.

The fan is because of the noxious fumes you will be in contact with after the engine starts to run and create heat. Paint, exhaust, and off gassing sealants just to name a few of the things that are not good to breathe.

The garden hose is not in case of fire. It is for cooling the floor of the car where the exhaust pipe contacts it and is melting the carpet, for cooling your arm after the radiator hose blows off and boiling water scalds it, for when you realize that the cooling system was not really full, for washing the gasoline from under the car when you discover the gas tank does have a return line...

[timinator]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for reminding me I live in my own little world of remote oil system pressurizing equipment, specialty tools, etc. Sometimes it takes awhile for me to remember what some of my specialty tools are used for. Even more embrassasing when I made them myself.

Community garage? No overhead trolley with electric hoist, air compressor, or tool boxes lined up one after another? I have new respect for your project.

Tim

[WhizzMan]

Tim has some valid point here. You can control the throttle from under the hood, no need to be sitting in the car.

A manual starter button can be relatively easy put in an Alfa 33. Just make a connection to the "small positive terminal" on the starter motor, route that to a button and route from the button to the positive terminal of the battery. Having a kill switch would be something similar, put a breaker switch in the positive lead to the ignition coil.

I would be cautious with putting in just water, given the weather circumstances at where your car is currently. One serious night of frost and your engine could pop apart. Other than that, water is cheaper and easier to deal with. It has less heat capacity (warms up quicker) than antifreeze and when you get burns from it, they are way less harmful than burns from glycol antifreeze. Another benefit is, that any debris inside your cooling system can be flushed out with water. Just change it a few times until it remains clean, before you put in antifreeze. All the debris left inside, will make the system less effective and wear out the pump quicker.

With cast iron blocks, I sometimes put in some caustic soda with the water, to flush out rust. This is a double edged blade, since it can be harmful to seals, gaskets and pumps. The debris coming loose can get stuck in your radiator, thermostat and pump. If you do this, do it only one heat cycle before flushing and keep a close eye on the engine and temperature during the entire process. There's no need to do this with newly build engines that were cleaned inside and out. It's a trick to get cars that keep on browning up coolant cleaned up.

[Guy Croft]

Hold it on the antifreeze thing. Too much loose info floating around here.

You should put some in the system. Or a water-wetter (but beware - some cause corrosion of alloy). Plain water - because of its surface tension does not 'wet' properly on metal and you can get hot spots in the system. Nucleate boiling. OE spec antifreeze is ALWAYS best, alloys vary.

That is the abridged story.

G

[Brit01]

Thank you gentlemen.

The starter switch attached to the motor is a good trick but keeping it at 2500 rpm adds a bit of complexity.

The engine coolant circuit has been kept extremely clean before the rebuild. When I drained it before the rebuild it was crystal clear (well apart from the glycol colour).
Also when I flushed out the radiator this was also very clean.
No debris at all.

As mentioned it has an amount of glycol now with distilled water, I'll keep it there for the start up following Guy's advice.
I'll do a flush along with the oil change after the first couple of hours break in.
Unfortunately OE spec items/parts are just impossible to get here in Uruguay.

Yes it's been quite a challenge. Carrying my tools back and forth 3 blocks every time I need to work on the car. I'd prefer not to leave my expensive collection of tools in the car as the garage is not responsible for any stolen items!
No power, little light (so most of my work is done between 11am-3pm weekends).

But luckily it's always above freezing in the garage.

Regards

[Guy Croft]

Well-done for sticking at it!

Unfortunately nothing worth having is easy..

G

[Brit01]

Weather is against me today. Fustrating.

Thunder/lightening, torrential rain, windy and cold. Not a good day to start her up.
And it's pitch black at 2 in the afternoon with the black skyline!

[timinator]

Hi Chris,

Sorry for not explaining with enough detail again. This was a race weekend and there is always one more thing to do.

On start up there are so many little things one does. I just need to remember that everyone else does not do the same things. The thermostat I use for initial running is 180 deg. F with a 1/16in. hole drilled in it so there is always at least minimal water flow the instant the engine fires up. After the engine achieves an acceptable level of running with whatever initial adjustments are required ,and there are no water leaks, drain the water out. The start up thermostat is then replaced with a flow restrictor or the desired thermostat. That would be no more than 10 minutes of running time. You do not have to drain the entire cooling system. Take out as much water as you need for the amount of antifreeze you plan on putting in. We use water wetter often. In our race engines we are not allowed to run antifreeze by the racetracks. Water wetter leaves a pink slime in the cooling system. That is why I don't like to use it initially because it contaminates gaskets similar to antifreeze. You might have already installed your thermostat with sealer or glue and it surely is a 195-205deg. F stock temperature range. It is up to you if you want to go to the bother of changing it.

This may seem over-the-top for a stock engine, but it is the way I do every engine. It is actually saves time when things don't go as planned.

I live in southern California. The worst weather we have would probably require you to put on a light jacket. Today at the racetrack it was 107deg. and cracking a block due to freezing was not on our minds.

Hope you get a break in the weather.

Tim

[Brit01]

Thanks Tim. 107 degrees F? pheww that is kind of warm.


Got a break and fired her up today after several checks on all pipes cables etc.
The starter motor wasn't powerful enough to get her up to a speed to pump the oil up to pressure after a few bursts. But I did notice about 300 ml of oil had been pumped out, probably filled up the oil filter. Topped her up again to the max line.

First 15 seconds I nursed her up to 2-2500 rpm but then she stalled.

Wasn't sure if it was lack of fuel or too much so I gently loosed the fuel line and it was full so conclusion was it got flooded. I probably put too much fuel into the carbs when I primed them.

Left it a couple of mins and then fired her up again.

Kept her running for about 12-15 mins watching temp/AFR/leaks etc. Thermostat opened nicely at about 86 degrees and then fan kicked in.

Tappets rattled for about 6 mins then went quieter fortunately.

I wasn't alone afterall, had 2 spectators (2 of the garage employees), amongst all the smoke watching my engine come back to life!!

I cleaned the exhaust manifold with strong detergent and water to try and get some of the oil off but it was inevitable to smoke like a chimney for 5 mins until it was all burnt off.

Small leak of oil from one lower bolt(where the thin paper gasket is) on the right cam box but hopefully that will seal itself and/or after the re-torque.

[WhizzMan]

Congratulations on the success!

[Brit01]

Thanks whizzman.

But the story is not over yet. No idea how it drives yet and how much compression I'll get from my new rings and de-glazed bores, also aftermarket INA non OE tappets I'm trying.

Keep you informed over the next week.

The fan is because of the noxious fumes you will be in contact with after the engine starts to run and create heat. Paint, exhaust, and off gassing sealants just to name a few of the things that are not good to breathe.

Managed to fill the large car warehouse full of smoke/fumes!!! Next time I remove the heads I will tape up the exhaust manifold to avoid so much oil and stuff getting on them.
It was like a BBQ!!(but without the flames)

[timinator]

Hi Chris,

You deserve a lot of credit for a job well done. It always amazes me when the engine I build starts and runs. I know that sounds strange coming from someone who builds engines for a living, but it is true. Could be the reason why I still look forward to going to work after 33 years in business. Hope you enjoyed your project too.

I do due re-rings and piston mods to engines that have many miles on the cylinder bores. It is not difficult to re-establish a good ring seal. Set the engine idle up higher than 1000rpm. If you have to drive in city traffic do not lug( run at low rpm) the engine. If traffic is heavy as a rule do your break-in drives late at night or when traffic is light. You need to keep the car moving to keep the cooling system flowing. Find a place where you can accelerate in third gear at full throttle from 2500-redline rpm. Do not try to accelerate hard in 1st or 2nd. Just get to third and then wait until you are at 2500rpm before you go. When you get to redline kick it in neutral, do not let the engine compression brake. Repeat this two times and then drive home. Kill the engine in first gear instead of turning off the ignition switch so the engine does not diesel because of the high idle speed. I'm not sure if you use the term diesel but it is the condition where the engine continues to run after the ignition is turned off. Do not drive the car again until the engine is cold. Repeat this procedure as often as you like. The engine rings need high load to seat, but you have to avoid micro welding that occurs at high temperature.

I look forward to other opinions.

Tim