Race Engine Forum UK

My name is Peter de Wit. Wanted to share a pic of two of my cars that need some engine attention. I rally them when possible. It started with circuit racing together with a friend some 15 years ago. It seemed to us that the best way to work as much as possible on the technical aspect of our Alfetta's was to race them. That worked out then and it still does. Using your cars means you can work on them substantially.

For the cars, this is the only 131 Abarth that I know about in the Netherlands. Until recently I had another one as well and it is nice to compare. Like, do all Abarth's have an attachment for a roll cage at the B-post, or mounting possibility for 8 brake calipers, adjustable torsion bars front and rear? Uniballs in the suspension etc. One difference I had was in the driveshafts. The solid ones I managed to brake. The thick tubes seemed better. The other car is a 240RS. Technically quite simple. Twin cam 16V engine, solid rear axle. But parts are a nightmare....

Peter !

Very nice cars indeed !

Could you post some technical data (if modified in any way) and more pictures (especially of the abrath).

Miro

( and spares ?)

Hello Peter,

You have two stunning cars! Do you know Thomas Senn ? He owns two 240 RS which ran in the african rallye many years ago.

thank you,

Daniel

miro-1980 wrote:Peter !

Very nice cars indeed !

Could you post some technical data (if modified in any way) and more pictures (especially of the abrath).

Miro

( and spares ?)

Hi Miro, I read about your car on the forum with interest. This was already before joining. When I first had the Abarth, I really treated is a very special beast. I am now on the other end of the scale. It is a beast, because you cannot get replacement parts for anything you damage. Making it less usable. I rev it up to 7500rpm, have driven it very hard on sticky tires. Lovely, but you will stop doing that if you have to repair what you break. My ultimate car at this stage would be a 2 door wide body Olio Fiat with correctly remade rear suspension, whatever diff with good lsd, Tran-X gearbox, correct rear uprights with additional calipers for hydraulic handbrake, modern adjustable MacPherson struts all around (Intrax in the Netherlands could make that for instance), adjustable roll bars front and rear, grp4 dash and an engine.... The latter preferably a remake of the 16V 131 head. Not sure if that exists yet. The body itself I would strengthen. But bottom line, what makes the Abarth so special to me is the handling and the sound. I do not know where the trick is, but the suspension is so lovely. The car stays flat and is still softly sprung. The steering is very direct and you can change between two holes on the uprights to increase/decrease the turns lock-to-lock. Maybe the trick is in the anti rollbars: They are adjustable front and rear. Adjustable by changing the mounting points of the drop links, but also you can set the length of the drop links. The latter might be quite an improvement. It will do away with any pre-load. And furthermore the drop links have uniballs.

Anyway, back to the car. Spec I still do not know. It was said to have 185bhp. It has a very nice abarth inlet manifold. With dreadful rubber mounts on top that are too soft and might leak. These mounts go from 44mm to 48mm. These are needed, since the stud pattern on the manifold is different to that of the carbs (like on Alfa nord engines). I will tap new studs in the manifold on the right spots and fit 44s. Cams I am not sure of. No markings on them, but also no marking on the cam wheels. I have replaced the belt. And timed the cams by using a micrometer on the lobe and a degreewheel on the auxiliary shaft wheel (brrrr, but the crank pully is too low). There is no vernier system on them, so it is quite coarse. After the operation, the engine had less torque under 4500rpm.

Furthermore the car is dead stock if you ask me. The outside has been sprayed. It was never in an accident, has done 55k kms and there is NO rust. The underbody of the car is still in black factory paint. No tricks.

Parts are a pain. I have an original exhaust manifold and reproduced silencers. That would be for sale, but is for 16V ports on the manifold. I have extra struts front and rear. Some drive shafts and wheels studs. The latter were the OEM ones of which I managed to brake 3! Then I have original wide cromodora's. 2 8in, 2 10in and 2 11in wide. Those could go as well. So that is about it for parts. Not a lot, but bits are too expensive to keep a stock of.

dflinkmann wrote:Hello Peter,

You have two stunning cars! Do you know Thomas Senn ? He owns two 240 RS which ran in the african rallye many years ago.

thank you,

Daniel

Daniel, I think he runs a period white ascona, right? Didn't know he had a 240RS. Do you know him well?

Hi Peter,

I don't know him personally, but I read that he bought two 240RS from africa. I send you an email/personal message regarding this. Please contact me offline.

Where in the netherlands do you live ? I would really like to see the 240 in real.

Thanks and greetings from Dortmund (which is not far away from the dutch border)

Daniel

Pater,

Thanks for your post !

Very interesting. I am actually amazed by three features of the car:

1/ It is 75 % stock 131 !

I use an 8v head , simply because building a 16v engine is incredibly expensive and all the parts are very hard to come by!

2/ its amazing engine.

In my view one of the best engines ever built. I have a 2. l with a 130 TC head ( large valves) adjustable cam wheels , fuel injected Argenta camshafts and 34 two Solex 34 upright carbs. Its power is not more than 130 bhp and around 190 torque. The engine easily revs ( with full load on a stage , not just in garage !) to 7500. Just did it last Saturday on a 35th Warsaw Rally special stage in the city of Otwock. The car with maladjusted accelaretor linkage ( openting the throttle only to 70% ) was incerdibly fast and reved to 7500.
3/ its amazing handling

Even with "stiff" standard 131 stock rear suspension - justy modified by fitting adjustable bilstein shocks and on street 205x60x13 tires. It is incerdibly predictable and unless you really overdoit by very far, it is easily conrtrollable and well responding to all correctioins by the steering wheel and throttle. When it jumps - it flies streigh and typicaly lands practically on all wheels (not just the side or front)

If I get the engine I want later this year ( Hi GC !) and out an abarth diff with independent rear suspension the car will perform close to yours ! ( I hope)

I agree with you on the limitations of this car. The problem is that the car is just begging you to drive it hard , but you do not want to drive it too hard as to cause machanical damage or lose control and (unacceptable forbid!) hit something. It is just too precious to me and I try to drive it hard but consetvetively (not really full out competition driving). It still gives me a lot of pleasure and keeps me in the top of the pack of my "Italian" competitors (though winning with two of them would really require all ourt competition driving , because this is what they do). I would rarther count on thrir mistakes and get a stronger engine than drive in a more risky manner. I am willing to secrifice wins for the pure enjoyment of driving this can in many rallies and track events to come).


My two top competitors are:

Alfa GTV:
and Ritmo Abarth :
Well both these guys are incredibly hard to beat !


Ona technical note:
There is one feature you mentioned I am really interested in: " The steering is very direct and you can change between two holes on the uprights to increase/decrease the turns lock-to-lock".

I am not sure if this is only an abarth feature or this is something you even with standard steering ? I would like to lower the lock to lock ratio a but and do not want to install foreign parts in my car ?

You would not have any pictures of this by a chance ? A simple hand dwaring will do so I can tray to locate this on a spare steering set I have in my garage.

Miro

Hi Miro,

That is a great post!! And what a car you have built!! As for the front hub, I will take a picture later this week. Let me know if you want me to shoot other details.

And for the 240RS, Daniel pointed me to a magazine article of two works safari 240RS's that were imported into Germany. I am on contact with the owners now. Thanks Daniel!!

Peter de Wit wrote:Thanks Daniel!!

You are very welcome.

Daniel

Works G4 131 front Hub Carriers did not have two take off points for steering - just the single point - See attached

(The Hub carrier on left is broken - Ex safari car!)

Mick,

I do not know what to think about it.

I was told that Abarth Grp.4 has two holes. I was shown pictures
Stradale had 3.4 lock to lock ( again this is in homologation papers as Stradale is FIA homologated.)

I have looked at the homologation papers and all I saw was one hole, except in one place where it seems to indicate that the change from 3.4 lock-to-lock to
2.85 lock to lock was achieved by a second hole in the front hub.

I believe that FIA homologation is public domain and thus I can put a copy of one page from the Fiat 131 Abarth Rally which seems to indicate just that.
I understand that all the modifications from Stradale for Grp 4. were optional; and not mandatory . So if they used a one hole from hub this would still meet homologation requirement. In this sense both versions are Gr4. homologated versions .

What do you say Mick ?

Miro

Lovely cars Robert. I agree about the 131 ride/ suspension. I was lucky enough to drive a friends stradale.

Very interesting. I hadn't seen that solution to changing the steering ratio before.

Miro,
Maybe this is a stradale/road car option. I would imagine the 'corsa' rally cars having the correct ratio in the rack. Even with no power steering to make things easy does 2.85 ratio sound a little slow for a corsa car?
The design with 2 holes would be weaker than a design made with one hole (as per Micks photos).

Melo

Melo,

this is an interesting thought.

Maybe indeed the two holes was on Stradale and the Corsa might have had the whole rack with 2.85 ratio.

I will soon have an original rack for a LHD car and we will see.

If it proves to be a a 2,85 ratio I will copy the rack and pinion gears onto CAD , flip it and re- manufacture it for a RHD, Than i will have a spare LHD Abarth rack

Miro

Hi guys

That photo is certainly interesting, but its not similar to any G4 car i have seen
- its not a G4 crossmember
- track control arm is stradale - stronger ones homologated very early in cars life and used on all cars i have seen
- lower suspension arm is stradale, but i think some early G4 cars may have used this for forest events
- brake disc and caliper is stradale

Is it, in fact, a Stradale and maybe all 131 Stradale's had this option (A bit like all stradales seem to have the holes for rear brake ducts whilst a lot of G4 cars dont!)

From memory, final G4 rack was quicker than 2.85 (i think 2.4) lock to lock - Very good, but heavy on the wrists and arms especially with wide wheels with massive offset. That is why it needs the rack damper.

Mick,

Very, very interesting!

I am surprised about the air ducts holes absence in Gr4!

I need to talk to you about calipers ( separate message). I certainly would be most interested in any more detailed drawings or pictures data of GR 4..

Re Lower suspension arm, crossmember and reaction rods- is this what you mean !


Also want to ask you what this part might be. It was among the stuff I got but my pictures and data sheets do not seem to give me a clue.


Miro

Top pictures certainly Group 4
- thick front antiroll bar with steel drop link attachment points
- Plated and welded engine crossmember
- reinforcement on shell
- the lower suspension arms are of the forged alloy type, but i note that the outer ball joint has pulled out
- Drag link is of the one piece type (rose jointed at front, requiring special front mounts)
- 20mm brake discs
- Dry sumped engine with reinforced mounts

As for the other bit, it does not ring a bell - the way the holers are flared doesnt look like the way Abarth did them. but that might be wrong. Does it have any attachment points at all, or is it just a loose part