Peugeot 205 GTi timing belt drive potential failure.

[DamirGTI]

Hello !

I need advice/help regarding this : I've been making regular weekend service on the car and decided to remove the timing belt cover as well just to see if it's fine and this is what i found :





Now I don't think that it's supposed to look like this hanging on the edge of the camshaft pulley so I've checked the timing with pins – all seems fine , then I removed/refitted/retensed the belt two times , tried moving the camshaft a little bit to the left in order to get a little bit more clearance but as soon as I start the engine the belt moves to the left and keeps spinning on this position , however it turns smooth without wandering sideways when the engine is running .
Just to add , there's no strange sounds , no rubbing , nothing unusual during the driving or anything really , all the parts are fairly new/fresh including the water pump all replaced 6months or maxi 1year ago (bar the tensioner I replaced him 4years ago ...)

Can someone (Guy ?) please help? I can't figure out what could possibly be wrong.

Thanks !
Damir

[Guy Croft]

Damir, hi

you urgently need to check the position of the belt on the crank drive too. Also any auxiliary pulleys on that motor, I don't know the layout, I've only done heads for them.

Is the belt running where it should be in those locations or is there a pulley out of alignment (eg on the crank)?

Report back please.

G

[DamirGTI]

Hello Guy , nice to hear you !

Well i haven't been using the car since this happened (i remembered you saying to me before – Trust your instinct , if something looks wrong it probably is .. and this is so true !) , however i didn't get a chance to inspect a little bit further cos the weather is a bit rainy over here for a last few days and , unfortunately im forced on repairing this outdoors cos my other car is stuck inside garage for the full bodywork rebuilding ..

The timing belt layout on this engine is like this :









I couldn't see the crank pulley when i've been removing/refitting the belt (been working just on the top part – camshaft pulley , tensioner , water pump ..) cos the alternator pulley is on top of the crank one , will check everything and report back to you ASAP .

Thanks !

Kind regards
Damir

[Guy Croft]

Damir, hi. well done.

Thanks for the photos, it seems that the only pulley with a flange might be the crank nose cambelt drive pulley, thus (if I am right) the belt should be constrained in proper position between a flange (?) on the back of that pulley and the crank front pulley that drives the alternator. Can you give me a closeup shot to show that particular layout please?

GC

[DamirGTI]

Hello !

Sorry Guy , been searching but i can't find any detail pics of that part of the engine .
I'll make some fresh pics when i get a chance to dismantle the belt , guess what it's still rainy outside :( .. until then , maybe this helps ? :









.. and this is the alternator pulley (i've found a spare one just to show you..)

front side


back side (you can see the crankshaft sprocket markings on top of the pulley surface)




Regarding the crankshaft pulley/sprocket , it just slides (it's removable) on to the end of the crankshaft and it's locked with an woodruff key (well they're both locked with woodruff keys , theres one for the alternator pulley and one for the crank sprocket ..) although i'm not sure if the crank sprocket can move to left or to the right when turning on the shaft cos me thinks that the alternator pulley (which also bolts on the end of the crankshaft just above the crankshaft sprocket..) prevents the crankshaft sprocket from “wandering” left or right when the engine is running/turning , if i remember that , it's a bit tight fit (you can see that by the markings on to the alternator pulley above..) so i dunno if theres any clearance in between the alternator pulley and crankshaft sprocket , or in between the crankshaft sprocket and block surface .. however i could be wrong ! Must check that .

Kind regards !
Damir

[Guy Croft]

OK so far!

The alternator pulley markings tell me that it's stopping the belt from 'walking' forward, maybe it's rubbing hard on that back of that pulley and should not be..

What we need to know is whether the driving pulley on the crank (that drives the belt) has a flange - and - is that pulley sitting in the right place on the crank nose? I suspect it is sitting too far forward maybe because it is jammed on the key and not hard up against the shoulder on the crank. If so, I warn you that the key drive on that engine can cause drive failure if not assembled correctly (key shears off and takes out the whole engine) so examine it most carefully!

The only other causes of the belt 'walking off' the cam pulley are (1) the head machined 'skewed' front end relative to rear end, but it has to be out of alignment a lot, and (2) collapsed tensioner bearings (the water pump pulley on some models)

GC

[smckeown]

just in case this helps a fellow pugger:



Sean

[Stratman]

Could it be crankshaft end float, i.e. incorrect thrust bearings?. This would offset the crank nose relative to the front of the block - mind you I wouldn't of thought it would be that far out without other problems.

Thanks,
Chris

[DamirGTI]

Hello !

Dear Guy , i might found what caused this belt "wandering" .. Been checking each part carefully with a straight ruler , didn't find anything wrong bar the tensioner - when i gently grip the tensioner bearing and try to rock it sideways it has around 1-2mm free play so me thinks that it could be the tensioner ? I've bought new one (expensive/quality one !) and also tried this free play test on that new one but i couldn't feel any free play like on the old one ...


1.The camshaft sprocket was fully inside as far as it goes , and so was the belt - in place as usual .. didn't notice anything strange around this area , sprocket was tight with zero free pay sideways . Just to say timing belt rotation on this engine is in clockwise direction as viewed from this picture .


Moving upwards you can see that the belt is starting to slip at a side as it goes from the water pump gear on to the tensioner bearing .


Closer look at the water pump gear ...


... and on the tensioner bearing .

Then i've dismantle the belt off the engine and examine each part :


Tensioner assembly .


Tensioner spring for possible squareness .


Tensioner nose mounting surface .


Alternator pulley .



Crankshaft pulley/sprocket .



And timing belt covers from the inside (red arrows are pointing on the area which is slightly "polished" by the timing belt)


Thanks !

Kind regards
Damir

(please say if there's too much pictures posted and i'll erase some of them !)

[Guy Croft]

MODEL POST!'

Well illustrated and captioned in outstanding English. An example of the most thorough inspection. I hope the culprit is soon ID'd.

Well done indeed 'on all fronts' Damir!

GC

[DamirGTI]

Hello !

Thanks Guy ! as always , im trying to offer as much detail explanation as i can so that we can trace the possible failure in accordance with the given info .

I've refitted the belt today (a new one) together with the new tensioner and so far so good , although i'll leave the top timing belt cover off so that i can monitor the belt position from time to time just to be sure that it's fine (for a piece of mind !).

Anyway , this is how it looks now :



This is the correct position of the timing belt on the pulley right ?

I also removed the top timing belt cover from my other car (it's the same make/model with the same engine as this one above !) and the timing belt position on the pulley looks identical as on the top pictures on my current daily driver :


Much thanks for all your help !

Kind regards
Damir

[Guy Croft]

Looking good now Damir.

It emphasises the importance of checking the tensioner when doing a belt. Some adjuster pulleys are very robust and will last for several belt changes, but there is a tendency toward lighter and lighter (incl plastic) ones these days and you really must consider whether not changing it at belt change interval is really 'good practice'..

GC

[DamirGTI]

Hi Guy !

The reason why i didn't suspect the tensioner until i've dismantle him for trough inspection is because it didn't produce any strange sounds and was spinning the belt in a straight line without "wobbling" sideways , at least i couldn't notice that however it was some cheap pattern tensioner of questionable quality .
I was under impression that when the tensioner wears out it'll start to produce whining (or similar) noise or the bearing will start to wobble when spinning ? is there any other signs which indicates worn tensioner ?

There is one more thing which i've notice (apart from the free play) - the bearing on the old tensioner spins up much easier and faster when im turning him with my fingers on the other hand the new one feels quite solid , it wont spin so easily/freely like the old one so i guess that this could also be a sign of a worn (or nearly worn out) bearing .

Thanks !

Kind regards
Damir