Race Engine Forum UK

Thanks Guy and Whizzman.

Good information and tips.

Conclusion: possible cause: drain the oil with engine hot into a clean container and take a good look

3. Tappet/cam problem
- will be noisy if tappet too loose

I was speaking with a fellow 33 owner (who built a 33 race engine with race cams. high compression, ported etc), and he suspects a worn tappet housing cup, he has seen before many times.
Maybe best to have the housings measured more accurately with precise instruments. We're suspecting the one housing near the filter was worn down due to foreign material entering it.

(One thing to mention is that the previous tappet noise started to appear about a month after I put some Motul 300V 15W/50 full synthetic in the engine - this may have cleaned out debris due to it's strong detergents and worn out or blocked the tappet/housing) I changed from Motul 15w/50 semi to Motul 300V full. I noticed a distinct cleaning effect of the oil due to the colour of it.

Guy: Would the gear oil have an effect on a slightly worn tappet sleeve? Maybe cushion the gap?

A likely cause at this point as the tappet in the exactly the same bucket is making the same noise when the engine gets very hot.

They can fix that here by putting new sleeves in.

The tappet support/passages were cleaned out so well I don't imagine the tappet getting blocked with debris, also exactly the same one as before. They were spotless. Used almost half a can of carb cleaner and WD40 for blowing out the passages.

I will probably order some new gaskets anyway, the sooner the better. Payen maybe?

None for boxers in the USA unfortunately. The USA supplier I found has them delivered from the UK anyway!

I've cleaned out tappets in the past by slamming them on an old newspaper, on a table top, with the valve-end down. That way, the innards will come out and you can clean them and put them back together again. Be sure to work clean, use fresh engine oil to assemble them and when in doubt about the condition of the parts inside, toss them.

I saw a web page on this method yesterday. Thanks whizzman.
Economically speaking, I am in Uruguay and nothing is slightly cheap here unfortunately whizzman.

No oil of any kind from a reputable source would have caused cam or tappet damage.


G

Sorry Guy. Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

We know that full synthetic oil has a strong cleaning effect on engines.
Maybe the change from semi to full cleaned off so much muck from the engine that it wore down one of the tappet sleeves or blocked the tappet and that caused a possible wearing effect on the sleeve.

Anyway some possible causes here we will investigate in the coming week and report back.

A loose tappet due to a worn sleeve is on my mind at the moment.

Going back to the gear oil question sorry. Would this have a cushioning effect on a loose tappet?

Just to add in relation to the design of the boxer, the tappet in question next to the oil filter is the one at the end of the oil passage from the pump so maybe due to the previous oil pressure issue (pitted gears) the tappet was not receiving enough oil and wore out the sleeve.

We know that full synthetic oil has a strong cleaning effect on engines. Maybe the change from semi to full cleaned off so much muck from the engine that it wore down one of the tappet sleeves or blocked the tappet and that caused a possible wearing effect on the sleeve.

Oil does not cause wear whether it has detergent additives or not. Oils have dispersants that carry debris in solution (unless not changed & overloaded in which case they tend to dump it as jelly) until the oil change. That is how oils clean engines.


Going back to the gear oil question sorry. Would this have a cushioning effect on a loose tappet?

Yes it might just shut it up because it's got much higher viscosity.

G

Thanks Guy as always.

Whizzman: I believe my headgasket is of the FBX type. Typically used on older engines.

This is not the thermosetting polymer type you are referring to, is it?

Trying to source a pair of good gaskets. Many brands on an internet auction site currently. I imagine most for the boxer are FBX.
Motaquip? The Gasket Shop? I heard Payen is good but haven't found any in UK yet. Still searching.
Probably end up buying the same set as I have now from the gasket shop. No issues with them so far and cheap. Includes all the extras, seals etc.

Sorry for my gasket ignorance. All a learning curve for me.

I have just read up about 5 types of gasket materials:

FBX is widely used for conventional head gaskets on
older engines. Its perforated steel core gives Strength and
flexibility, and the fibre coating allows the gasket to be
compressed to form a gas tight seal.

MLS is the new generation of head gaskets, it is
constructed of sheet steel layers which allows The head
gasket to be loaded much more than FBX so it can
withstand much higher pressures Generated within
modern engines. This technology does demand that the
contact surfaces are clean and perfectly flat.

SLF is a hybrid of FBX & MLS, it has the benefit of
MLS with a higher load ability, also with the fibre core it
is more flexible than MLS so the contact surface
condition is not so critical.

SEL is a single layer steel construction with High
density silicon beading to seal the oil & water circuits.
floating steel fire rings seal the combustion chambers.

SLS is single layer steel construction which relies on
pre formed compression ridges to seal all critical areas
once the gasket is loaded..

Just heated up the engine and waited for the tick to start. Just about when the fan kicks in.
Was really smooth and quiet until the fan kicks in and gets hot.

Pulled the plug and no change - still ticked as I expected.
Wow those sparks can really jump a big gap!!!

Tried listening with a metal rod but couldn't really hear much.

Well in my opinion the head needs to come off to check the tappet sleeves and have them rebuilt if necessary.

Will whip it off tomorrow night. Time is of an issue now as summer is coming and we'll need the car asap. We travel to our beach house every weekend about 120kms out of the city.

This video was taken on Tuesday before the engine got up to temp.
The microphone on the camera really is not good and doesn't reveal the authentic sound unfortunately.
Last night the ticking goes up and down in noise level slightly maybe as the tappet rotates in it's sleeve. (sorry forgot to take the camera - besides it was in the garage with a lot of background noise with other cars coming in and out constantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNNWlsh0TWA

This is an old video of before the engine was rebuilt and with the load ticking sound. Didn't sound good in general at all. Engine sounds much smoother now but still with a ticking noise from the same side of the right cam. Ticking is more evident by ear rather than on the video. The microphone somewhat muffles the ticking noise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=i1EyptOzVWs

Did you clean the oil channels in the engine block itself? Just cleaning the heads may not have been enough. If your tappet carrier has worn, I don't really see any other solution than to replace it. I wouldn't know of any method to revive it that would be cheaper than having one shipped in from Europe.

Engine block channels were cleaned.
If they were still blocked I assume the tappets would be noisy from cold start up and never pump up properly.

If your tappet carrier has worn, I don't really see any other solution than to replace it. I wouldn't know of any method to revive it that would be cheaper than having one shipped in from Europe.

Uruguay workshops are specialists at rebuilding and keeping old engines going for decades.

They re-bore the housings and fit new sleeves for the tappets.

Shipping in from overseas is usually not an option, this is why the machinists have developed the techniques to work on tasks like this.
Maybe from Argentina but would cost an arm and a leg with all the custom charges and taxes.

For example my oil pump was rebuilt here for just 120 USD. Brand new helical gears machined and works great.
A small specialist shop here that just rebuilds oil pumps. They can rebuild the housing for the pumps also.

Great found a supplier for Ajusa head gaskets.
I believe these are MLS type but I will verify when visiting the shop. Bit pricey but good gaskets I hear.

Also an Alfa friend knows a machinist who can repair the tappet bucket.

Good news so far.

More good news! Found a local car lot with some cam supports, we're getting measurements of the buckets and bearings to see if they are in good condition.
Better option if the clearances are within spec.

Head coming off tonight/tomorrow. (if my 17 month old would just go to sleep - he's on Duracel tonight! Wish I had as much energy). His mother is asleep already - She starts work at 5am!

New used cam support being picked up tomorrow.
Inspection time and fine measurement time also.

Cannot wait to see what the problem is! Is it a worn cam, or a real bad HLA (Hydraulic Lifter Assembly) or something else...

Your older second video had obvious tappet noise when i listened it. Noise has too low frequency to be a bearing noise. And conrod bearings doesn't make that kind of sharp clicking noise...
Once you hear bearing noise, you never mix that with anything else.

Interested; what kind of linkage is needed between DRLA's because they are so far away to each other?

Thanks Urbancamo for your feedback on the videos.

Took me 2 hours to remove the head last night. It's sitting in the second bedroom waiting to be inspected today.

Regarding the linkage - a long one!! Maybe you can see in this photo.
The throttle cable is linked at one end of the bar. It has 2 adjustable rods, one at each end that push down on the DRLA throttle linkage.
They are dificult to balance and if out of sync the engine feels and vibrates horribly. It also has an effect on the mixture and increases the temp. of the engine as one side will be working harder than the other.

Lobes are fine.

Hydraulic tappets have smooth flat faces, just faint circular marks on them.

The circular marks are normal I assume from the bedding in process from the lobes as they rotate in their buckets?

Also squeezed each one of them, and a little oil oozes out of the hole.

My good friend is picking up a possible cam support replacement today.
He also knows someone who has precise instruments to measure the buckets and bearings of the support.
Let's hope they meet specs.

Looking at the old buckets they appear to be worn at the lower an upper edges, this is possible cause of the ticking as the sleeve has become slightly oval.

Lobes are fine as you see and as I mentioned the tappets have a circular pattern on them but are smooth and flat.

Hmm real odd. I still thought you would found nothing but pieces in good condition.

I have seen and heard Fiat TC engines that have high mileage. Sometimes cam buckets and their holes are somewhat worn, they make somekind of rattling noise when hot. Sound is uneven rattle especially in lower revs. If it was lifter/cam noise, it would be even sound.
Sound cannot came anywhere else, disassembled several noisy heads and found no other thing but little loose buckets. This is rare finding though. I don't know wich one expands more on hot, bucket or cam box.

What kind of oil you use? I have now 1500 km in my Lada, and bedding-in is almost complete. Oil that i used is cheapest 15W-40 API SF, made by Finnish company. Tappet noise is awful with this kind of mineral oil. Especially hot. I know that clearances are good and cam + lifters (mechanical) are fine.
I know from recent experience that when i change oil in decent one, noise disappears almost completely. So much difference between oils!

But when engine is in pieces again, it's time to measure and and check all parts twice, or even more. Measure twice - rebuild only once. That's my preferred slogan.

T