We aren't in the early 80's in italy. Where the guys drove 6:1 and 2 bar pressure... But it's you engine. Lower the pressure ratio and test it.
/edit:
The CR of 12:1 is not correct. You can't make it with this formula. Knocking is a problem of to less fuel, you drive to lean! Make the micture more rich and you will have no problems! At lambda 0.95 - 1.0 you have the most knocking problems. About lambda 1.2 you can drive with much ignition before the TDC. That's the reason why old cars without CAT need lesser fuel than newer cars in the 90's because the must drive lambda 1 to use the function of the CAT and that's why the engines have 5-10 bhp less power.
Drive at Lambda 0.8 and your car will drive fine! At Lambda 0.85/0.86 you have the best torque but maybe you will get temperatur problems.. That's why I say 0.8 is ok.
Uno 1.3 Turbo tuning
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SteveNZ
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sumplug
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By increasing the CR and increasing the boost, you increase pressure and so generate much more heat. The exhaust valve gets hot, and you get detonation. Your pressure then goes from around 2000 psi to over 4000 psi and lifts the head.
Yes, increasing the CR will make the engine's volumetric efficiency better and even help on fuel consumption, but the longevity of the engine is vastly decreased. If you can lower the charge temperature, and use high RON rated fuel, then yes, upping the CR will help. But choosing the right cam is important.
Andy.
Yes, increasing the CR will make the engine's volumetric efficiency better and even help on fuel consumption, but the longevity of the engine is vastly decreased. If you can lower the charge temperature, and use high RON rated fuel, then yes, upping the CR will help. But choosing the right cam is important.
Andy.
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Acki
This pressure didn't damage the engine! Did you ever seen and broken crankshaft on Fiat sohc turbo engines???
The knocking is no detonation! This is poor! Detonantion is much faster than knocking and knocking is much faster than the normal burning mixture!
You can get heatproblems because of a high CR but he also want's 150bhp and a good torque! On a 300bhp engine I won't get about 8,5:1 CR! But I would never get under a CR of 8:1 because when I have heat problems I can use water alcohol injection to compensate them when I drive long distance on the highway in higher gears! When I have heat problems in lower gears I have a problem whit my mixture!
When I use WAI I have a torque plus because of the cooling of the air!
The next reason for WAI is that I canb drive more boost but when I install them think that the wideband lambdasensor will bring you a lean mixture because of the O in the H2O! Clear? Make you engine whitout WAI on Lambda 0,8 and then look the EGT whit WAI.
The knocking is no detonation! This is poor! Detonantion is much faster than knocking and knocking is much faster than the normal burning mixture!
You can get heatproblems because of a high CR but he also want's 150bhp and a good torque! On a 300bhp engine I won't get about 8,5:1 CR! But I would never get under a CR of 8:1 because when I have heat problems I can use water alcohol injection to compensate them when I drive long distance on the highway in higher gears! When I have heat problems in lower gears I have a problem whit my mixture!
When I use WAI I have a torque plus because of the cooling of the air!
The next reason for WAI is that I canb drive more boost but when I install them think that the wideband lambdasensor will bring you a lean mixture because of the O in the H2O! Clear? Make you engine whitout WAI on Lambda 0,8 and then look the EGT whit WAI.
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Guy Croft
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Dear members,
all very interesting, I'm sure, about this or that CR, this turbo-that-turbo - but frankly it puts off most readers and it's something I already see far too much of on car forums around the world! No disrespect to anyone but I don't want that and the thing is drifting off topic.
Yugo Turbo would like some guidance.
I am going to state run 8.0/1 with 12 psi boost with n/a cam from another model and flowed head - or 7.5/1CR with same motor 15psi boost 7.2/1 with 18-20psi boost.
If you want to continue writing here read everything that has been written and offer advice (based on direct personal experience only - as per normal strict GC regime) - on components and ancillaries please.
Yugo Turbo - I don't like reading about mix and match with turbochargers. Remember I was a Chief Engineer with a turbo firm! The turbo will be based on engine performance (a spec you need to go 'firm' on) and the boost you want - I suggest 12-15 with flowed head and n/a cam.
Get in touch with a well-known turbocharger supplier (never buy any other way) and use what they recommend. if they don't ask questions about your engine to try to get a good match you're wasting your time with them. My own favourites are UK's Turbo Technics, which is where I think Nathan Corridon (see link I posted above) got his.
You will note that I rarely say 'use this part and that part' (eg: from me) even though I easily could, I leave the choice wide open, so let no-one say GC is making everyone to do it his way. As far as CR is concerned I DO have the race engine experience to make that call. Let's move on now please.
GC
all very interesting, I'm sure, about this or that CR, this turbo-that-turbo - but frankly it puts off most readers and it's something I already see far too much of on car forums around the world! No disrespect to anyone but I don't want that and the thing is drifting off topic.
Yugo Turbo would like some guidance.
I am going to state run 8.0/1 with 12 psi boost with n/a cam from another model and flowed head - or 7.5/1CR with same motor 15psi boost 7.2/1 with 18-20psi boost.
If you want to continue writing here read everything that has been written and offer advice (based on direct personal experience only - as per normal strict GC regime) - on components and ancillaries please.
Yugo Turbo - I don't like reading about mix and match with turbochargers. Remember I was a Chief Engineer with a turbo firm! The turbo will be based on engine performance (a spec you need to go 'firm' on) and the boost you want - I suggest 12-15 with flowed head and n/a cam.
Get in touch with a well-known turbocharger supplier (never buy any other way) and use what they recommend. if they don't ask questions about your engine to try to get a good match you're wasting your time with them. My own favourites are UK's Turbo Technics, which is where I think Nathan Corridon (see link I posted above) got his.
You will note that I rarely say 'use this part and that part' (eg: from me) even though I easily could, I leave the choice wide open, so let no-one say GC is making everyone to do it his way. As far as CR is concerned I DO have the race engine experience to make that call. Let's move on now please.
GC
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Yugo_Turbo
Firtstly, thank you all you guys for sharing your knowledge.
One more reason I'm going to run engine with such low is terrible(I mean REALLY terrible) fuel in Serbia.
Another one reason is that my firend and I will be mapping this engine and I'm not expirienced engine builder and I dont think I can map engine to run 8.5 or 9:1 1.5-1.6 bars of boost and to keep engine running "healthy".
Third reason you allready know-higher boost.
@Acki
Thanks for reccomendation of WatherAlcohol Injection, but that is not an option.
Interesting...I must try it.
One of the reasons why I want to do it myslef was gaining expirience and knowledge about these fantastic engines.
That's one of the reasons why I want to use other car's stock turbo(others I allready told you).
If I choose to go with hybrid turbo, there is Official Garrett Service whic offer in-house build hybrids for any spec.
I'll seek for their advice,too.
And I'm trying to avoid buying too many parts in UK, cause of very high prices(well for Serbia's standards anyway).
From UK will come maybe pistons and allmost certainlly head gasket.
Thank you.
One more reason I'm going to run engine with such low is terrible(I mean REALLY terrible) fuel in Serbia.
Another one reason is that my firend and I will be mapping this engine and I'm not expirienced engine builder and I dont think I can map engine to run 8.5 or 9:1 1.5-1.6 bars of boost and to keep engine running "healthy".
Third reason you allready know-higher boost.
@Acki
Thanks for reccomendation of WatherAlcohol Injection, but that is not an option.
So you reccomend N/A cam, too?I am going to state run 8.0/1 with 12 psi boost with n/a cam from another model and flowed head - or 7.5/1CR with same motor 15psi boost 7.2/1 with 18-20psi boost.
Interesting...I must try it.
Well, the first idea was to keep this as much as possible DIY project.Yugo Turbo - I don't like reading about mix and match with turbochargers. Remember I was a Chief Engineer with a turbo firm! The turbo will be based on engine performance (a spec you need to go 'firm' on) and the boost you want - I suggest 12-15 with flowed head and n/a cam.
Get in touch with a well-known turbocharger supplier (never buy any other way) and use what they recommend. if they don't ask questions about your engine to try to get a good match you're wasting your time with them. My own favourites are UK's Turbo Technics, which is where I think Nathan Corridon (see link I posted above) got his.
One of the reasons why I want to do it myslef was gaining expirience and knowledge about these fantastic engines.
That's one of the reasons why I want to use other car's stock turbo(others I allready told you).
If I choose to go with hybrid turbo, there is Official Garrett Service whic offer in-house build hybrids for any spec.
I'll seek for their advice,too.
And I'm trying to avoid buying too many parts in UK, cause of very high prices(well for Serbia's standards anyway).
From UK will come maybe pistons and allmost certainlly head gasket.
I'm not one of those, for sure.You will note that I rarely say 'use this part and that part' (eg: from me) even though I easily could, I leave the choice wide open, so let no-one say GC is making everyone to do it his way. As far as CR is concerned I DO have the race engine experience to make that call. Let's move on now please.
Thank you.
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Guy Croft
- Site Admin
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- Location: Bedford, UK
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Sasha, hi
yes you can run a normally aspirated cam, I have done this on 1600TC turbo units. It is a relatively cheap way to 'up' the power. However, the rule with turbocharged engines is that the ex lift should be less than the inlet, this has been proved over and over and all manufacturers of good cams will cite higher inlet than ex lift. A turbo engine simply doesn't need as much ex lift and the penalty can be rather poor torque in the lower rpm band off and on boost.
A better solution is to get a cam from say, Piper, I strongly recommend billet not regrind - they have a BP270 profile that would be ideal (valve lift 10.4/9mm) so they will work with std valve springs no problem, although you will have to check the piston valve reliefs deep enough. If you cannot afford that don't change the cam at all. Reread the thread about Nathan's car, that engine ran a standard-Uno-Turbo-cam!
Re prices of UK products, it's off topic but you made the point so I want to comment constructively: As the owner of a small firm - on which I depend for my livelihood - GCRE, I have daily to face the crushing reality that whilst the UK is probably one of the best places in the world to source OE and competition parts, the 'value' of the UK ‚£ against every other world currency makes export of our products increasingly difficult. Read - nearly impossible. I see no end to it except - within 6 or 7 years, the complete disappearance of the UK special tuning industry. All my friends say this.
In the meantime I say - you get 'what you pay for'. No-one sells good raceparts 'cheap'.
If you read 'cheap', step back and think about it. A vast proportion of USA stuff is now made in the far east. I was horrified the other to get some parts packed in an Edelbrock box, well-known name, and on the box (some rocker box thingy) it said 'made in Taiwan'. That's terrible. If you're buying big name stuff like that you want it made in the USA. My great friends Cunningham Rods are under huge pressure from firms whose rods are made for $10 a rod in China. Good grief! Greg Cunningham virtually invented the race rod. Not good.
Time and again people ring me saying that they bought this-or-that part from within their own country (not UK) and it either 'doesn't work', or 'wears out', or they can't get anywhere near the power I quote for my engines. And, often having fitted second-best parts, they will write on this site and and ask why they don't deliver the results, and even when I tell them, they will still moan about the price. I really don't like that. And of course there is always a fool somewhere who will say the opposite of what I say just to try and make a name for himself.
Here I am recommending Piper. I could recommend whoever I wanted, including me as I am an agent for them. And Kent too. I am doing that because if you buy from them - you are going to get something that works - no other reason.
In my view as a race engine builder (and quite a big buyer for the size of my firm), if something really works, I don't care how much it costs.
No-one is 'made of money' - I've been cheated plenty - save up for the right bits and have a care as to how you spend it.
GC
yes you can run a normally aspirated cam, I have done this on 1600TC turbo units. It is a relatively cheap way to 'up' the power. However, the rule with turbocharged engines is that the ex lift should be less than the inlet, this has been proved over and over and all manufacturers of good cams will cite higher inlet than ex lift. A turbo engine simply doesn't need as much ex lift and the penalty can be rather poor torque in the lower rpm band off and on boost.
A better solution is to get a cam from say, Piper, I strongly recommend billet not regrind - they have a BP270 profile that would be ideal (valve lift 10.4/9mm) so they will work with std valve springs no problem, although you will have to check the piston valve reliefs deep enough. If you cannot afford that don't change the cam at all. Reread the thread about Nathan's car, that engine ran a standard-Uno-Turbo-cam!
Re prices of UK products, it's off topic but you made the point so I want to comment constructively: As the owner of a small firm - on which I depend for my livelihood - GCRE, I have daily to face the crushing reality that whilst the UK is probably one of the best places in the world to source OE and competition parts, the 'value' of the UK ‚£ against every other world currency makes export of our products increasingly difficult. Read - nearly impossible. I see no end to it except - within 6 or 7 years, the complete disappearance of the UK special tuning industry. All my friends say this.
In the meantime I say - you get 'what you pay for'. No-one sells good raceparts 'cheap'.
If you read 'cheap', step back and think about it. A vast proportion of USA stuff is now made in the far east. I was horrified the other to get some parts packed in an Edelbrock box, well-known name, and on the box (some rocker box thingy) it said 'made in Taiwan'. That's terrible. If you're buying big name stuff like that you want it made in the USA. My great friends Cunningham Rods are under huge pressure from firms whose rods are made for $10 a rod in China. Good grief! Greg Cunningham virtually invented the race rod. Not good.
Time and again people ring me saying that they bought this-or-that part from within their own country (not UK) and it either 'doesn't work', or 'wears out', or they can't get anywhere near the power I quote for my engines. And, often having fitted second-best parts, they will write on this site and and ask why they don't deliver the results, and even when I tell them, they will still moan about the price. I really don't like that. And of course there is always a fool somewhere who will say the opposite of what I say just to try and make a name for himself.
Here I am recommending Piper. I could recommend whoever I wanted, including me as I am an agent for them. And Kent too. I am doing that because if you buy from them - you are going to get something that works - no other reason.
In my view as a race engine builder (and quite a big buyer for the size of my firm), if something really works, I don't care how much it costs.
No-one is 'made of money' - I've been cheated plenty - save up for the right bits and have a care as to how you spend it.
GC
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Yugo_Turbo
About cams.
In my original plan I did'nt want to change my cam(maaaaaybe to try PuntoGTs, thats all).
But I taught that you are (and you were as I still think) giving me advice to change cam.
As I told, plan is 150/160bhp 160+Nm, everything over is extra.
So I want to make good plan for healthy and long living engine with that otput.
So by your(not just Guy, everybody who has expirience with these engines) opinion, should I change cam to achive this output, and should I go for "special' turbo,hybrid or some cars stock unit will let me achive these figures?
I don't expect straightforward answers, like yes it will, or no it's not good enough, as I know it'can be told like that.
Thanks everyone in advance.
About prices in UK.
I think you didn't understand what I wanted to say.
I don't think that you can get state of art race parts for cheap, I just say that parts in UK are usually more expensive than in some other countries.
Like, Garret turbochargers are much cheaper in USA tha in anywhere in Europe, especially UK.I know about some people who ordered these turbos from USA and event with shipment costs it was still cheaper than in EU.Well those where GT garretts, but you get the point.
You've mentioned those "Made in China" parts, well, globalisation-we are small players in big game, we can't do nothing about it.
About cam you've reccommended, I can't afford it wright now, but if there will be money in near future I'll buy it.
Thank you once more for spending your free time on this topic.
Best regards,
Sasha!
In my original plan I did'nt want to change my cam(maaaaaybe to try PuntoGTs, thats all).
But I taught that you are (and you were as I still think) giving me advice to change cam.
As I told, plan is 150/160bhp 160+Nm, everything over is extra.
So I want to make good plan for healthy and long living engine with that otput.
So by your(not just Guy, everybody who has expirience with these engines) opinion, should I change cam to achive this output, and should I go for "special' turbo,hybrid or some cars stock unit will let me achive these figures?
I don't expect straightforward answers, like yes it will, or no it's not good enough, as I know it'can be told like that.
Thanks everyone in advance.
About prices in UK.
I think you didn't understand what I wanted to say.
I don't think that you can get state of art race parts for cheap, I just say that parts in UK are usually more expensive than in some other countries.
Like, Garret turbochargers are much cheaper in USA tha in anywhere in Europe, especially UK.I know about some people who ordered these turbos from USA and event with shipment costs it was still cheaper than in EU.Well those where GT garretts, but you get the point.
You've mentioned those "Made in China" parts, well, globalisation-we are small players in big game, we can't do nothing about it.
About cam you've reccommended, I can't afford it wright now, but if there will be money in near future I'll buy it.
Thank you once more for spending your free time on this topic.
good point!save up for the right bits and be careful how you spend it.
Best regards,
Sasha!
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Guy Croft
- Site Admin
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Sasha, hi
Very difficult but I'll try.
You have several choices, and based on cost vs benefit - in my exp, and bearing in mind mech stress, thermal stress, true cost and complexity of engine parts (gaskets, pistons etc) and ancillary costs (clutch, oil cooler, radiator, intercooler etc) and recalibration of the ecu - here they are in order of lowest cost first:
1. standard turbo-boost & n/a cam. (note: (1) and (2) below are the only mods where you might just get away with raising the injection pressure, but you will need fuel pressure gauge etc and a Lambda system to set it up)
2. standard engine and gasflowed head
3. bigger turbo std engine (ie: turbo that gives more mass flow for given rp, with capability of up to 17psi boost - with new turbo you will immediately run into setting-up problems)
4. (3) with gasflowed head
5. (4) with n/a cam
6. (4) with billet cam
7. Fully developed head with (6).
I hope you can follow that and sure I am by no means infallible but I reckon you will meet your target with (2) easily.
If anyone can produce a better list I am very happy to have it published, but please only if you have actually done it all, as I have.
GC
Very difficult but I'll try.
You have several choices, and based on cost vs benefit - in my exp, and bearing in mind mech stress, thermal stress, true cost and complexity of engine parts (gaskets, pistons etc) and ancillary costs (clutch, oil cooler, radiator, intercooler etc) and recalibration of the ecu - here they are in order of lowest cost first:
1. standard turbo-boost & n/a cam. (note: (1) and (2) below are the only mods where you might just get away with raising the injection pressure, but you will need fuel pressure gauge etc and a Lambda system to set it up)
2. standard engine and gasflowed head
3. bigger turbo std engine (ie: turbo that gives more mass flow for given rp, with capability of up to 17psi boost - with new turbo you will immediately run into setting-up problems)
4. (3) with gasflowed head
5. (4) with n/a cam
6. (4) with billet cam
7. Fully developed head with (6).
I hope you can follow that and sure I am by no means infallible but I reckon you will meet your target with (2) easily.
If anyone can produce a better list I am very happy to have it published, but please only if you have actually done it all, as I have.
GC
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Yugo_Turbo
well thanks,
this list is fantastic, and I found one set-up which I will try firt, if it doesn't work, I'll try something else.
this list is fantastic, and I found one set-up which I will try firt, if it doesn't work, I'll try something else.
Thank you once more!3. bigger turbo std engine (ie: turbo that gives more mass flow for given rp, with capability of up to 17psi boost - with new turbo you will immediately run into setting-up problems)
4. (3) with gasflowed head
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