Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Time for an update....
I have a new exhaust that's nice and quiet at around 93 decibels. It's a bit of a monster to get the noise levels right down
I also had a map top-up by Steve and Steve at Track 'n' Road
The results (ultra accurate) were:
150lb/ft @ 6229
185 bhp @ 6850 (flywheel)
Result in 77.6 lb/ft per litre, 192.4 BMEP and 246.6 bhp per tonne
Here's the graph
A full write up and more pics on my webpage here
It goes so well it's incredible! It's what you'd expect from having 80% of peak torque for a whopping 4700 revs; now that's a seriously good powerband.
I have compiled a quick video of the mapping.
Right click save as here
Now onto fix a few niggles and it's track time..
--
So before I can get out and drive the car in anger, there are a few issues/improvements to make, some mandatory, some tidyup, the list is:
Mandatory stuff before next track day:
1 - Improve Oil Cooling System - Currently I am running an air to oil cooler with a removable jacket. This system isn't working well, as even on the road the oil isnt getting over 60deg C and that's too cold. Plus removing the jacket is a pain in the bums, and even worse is the oil change is a knuckle skin remover.
So Guy is helping me implement the following system:
Remote Filter housing with larger filter
Thermostat to control flow to oil cooler (or not)
With everything re-located I will have a much better layout allowing easy oil changes and be able to get better oil temps
2 - Stop oil leaks
My new cam cover is leaking even whean sealant is used, to it went back to QEP this week to sort out, either flatten or build up and skim
3 - Improved oil breather setup
I need to perform more testing, but I think even though the car is breathing significantly better (according to steve greenald) the catch tank can fill up quicker than expected. So i'm designing an air/oil seperator with a drain back to the sump, and intending to make it myself with my new tig welder. So I will need my current sump to have a drain plug fabricated.
3 - Sort out binding front caliper
4 - Sort out speed sensor, clearance must have changed as it's not working half the time
Optional stuff going forward:
5 - Fabricate proper bulk head gromets
6 - Tidy-up wiring in engine bay, I haven't had time since getting it back to ensure the proper heat shielding for wiring is in place, and keeping wires secured away from alternator etc
7 - Fabricate new display - Remove secondary oil and water displays, and replace with a new dash display that receives it's feed from the DTA ECU. So rather than need duplicate senders, I need only 1. Lighter and simpler. This is the new fully configurable display that will make it's way to compliment my new display.
Here is the display:
So going from this (current):
To this mock-up:
8 - Make the grill quick release - as it comes off so much, changing the fasteners to r-clip type fasteners will make life easier.
9 - Fit new fabricated fuel rail. The fabricatyed one had a small pin hole in it, so I got the mended version back this week. This will tidy up the fuel hosing a bit
10 - Fabricate new brackets for oil cooler and grill - self made
That should keep me busy for a while
I have a new exhaust that's nice and quiet at around 93 decibels. It's a bit of a monster to get the noise levels right down
I also had a map top-up by Steve and Steve at Track 'n' Road
The results (ultra accurate) were:
150lb/ft @ 6229
185 bhp @ 6850 (flywheel)
Result in 77.6 lb/ft per litre, 192.4 BMEP and 246.6 bhp per tonne
Here's the graph
A full write up and more pics on my webpage here
It goes so well it's incredible! It's what you'd expect from having 80% of peak torque for a whopping 4700 revs; now that's a seriously good powerband.
I have compiled a quick video of the mapping.
Right click save as here
Now onto fix a few niggles and it's track time..
--
So before I can get out and drive the car in anger, there are a few issues/improvements to make, some mandatory, some tidyup, the list is:
Mandatory stuff before next track day:
1 - Improve Oil Cooling System - Currently I am running an air to oil cooler with a removable jacket. This system isn't working well, as even on the road the oil isnt getting over 60deg C and that's too cold. Plus removing the jacket is a pain in the bums, and even worse is the oil change is a knuckle skin remover.
So Guy is helping me implement the following system:
Remote Filter housing with larger filter
Thermostat to control flow to oil cooler (or not)
With everything re-located I will have a much better layout allowing easy oil changes and be able to get better oil temps
2 - Stop oil leaks
My new cam cover is leaking even whean sealant is used, to it went back to QEP this week to sort out, either flatten or build up and skim
3 - Improved oil breather setup
I need to perform more testing, but I think even though the car is breathing significantly better (according to steve greenald) the catch tank can fill up quicker than expected. So i'm designing an air/oil seperator with a drain back to the sump, and intending to make it myself with my new tig welder. So I will need my current sump to have a drain plug fabricated.
3 - Sort out binding front caliper
4 - Sort out speed sensor, clearance must have changed as it's not working half the time
Optional stuff going forward:
5 - Fabricate proper bulk head gromets
6 - Tidy-up wiring in engine bay, I haven't had time since getting it back to ensure the proper heat shielding for wiring is in place, and keeping wires secured away from alternator etc
7 - Fabricate new display - Remove secondary oil and water displays, and replace with a new dash display that receives it's feed from the DTA ECU. So rather than need duplicate senders, I need only 1. Lighter and simpler. This is the new fully configurable display that will make it's way to compliment my new display.
Here is the display:
So going from this (current):
To this mock-up:
8 - Make the grill quick release - as it comes off so much, changing the fasteners to r-clip type fasteners will make life easier.
9 - Fit new fabricated fuel rail. The fabricatyed one had a small pin hole in it, so I got the mended version back this week. This will tidy up the fuel hosing a bit
10 - Fabricate new brackets for oil cooler and grill - self made
That should keep me busy for a while
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Definately some busy time for you ahead with that list!! All worth while stuff to get sorted though.
Whats with the flat spot at ~4.5k RPM?
Whats with the flat spot at ~4.5k RPM?
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Great!
I'd say that's about the ultimate for a 1900cc 8v unit! Flat spot is some adverse interaction in inlet pressure waves, you can move it around the rpm band around by rampipe and header 'tuning', but no more than that. Very expensive undertaking that is too. You can't win really, and FWIW most n/a engines I've seen have a 'dip' thereabouts..
Well done indeed,
G
I'd say that's about the ultimate for a 1900cc 8v unit! Flat spot is some adverse interaction in inlet pressure waves, you can move it around the rpm band around by rampipe and header 'tuning', but no more than that. Very expensive undertaking that is too. You can't win really, and FWIW most n/a engines I've seen have a 'dip' thereabouts..
Well done indeed,
G
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Hi Guy, Yes I think you're right about your pressure waves and header comment. Just as a matter of interest, we also performed a quick run without my airbox. As you can see the dip was reduced and peak torque went up to 158 lb/ft and came in quicker.Guy Croft wrote:Great!
I'd say that's about the ultimate for a 1900cc 8v unit! Flat spot is some adverse interaction in inlet pressure waves, you can move it around the rpm band around by rampipe and header 'tuning', but no more than that. Very expensive undertaking that is too. You can't win really, and FWIW most n/a engines I've seen have a 'dip' thereabouts..
Well done indeed,
G
Some fine tuning for next year maybe.
I'm dissapointed that the race manifoold from maniflow, because is sleeved, sounds like a tractor. So I may go for a set of headers next year with longer primaries and fully welded up.
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Thanks for explaining why the flat spot is present. N/A tuning is not something I'm overly familar with and have never really seen many dyno prints for tuned N/A Engines.
Ant
Ant
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Here are most the parts for my new oil cooler setup. Guy helped design a race oriented setup for me, to ensure I optimise my oil temps.
The parts arrived today, and I was most impressed with how the items were packaged.
Here are the parts, and the hose routes, just to ensure I understand the route and where everything goes.
The only item outstanding is to ensure I get the 'from block' union correct. Thinkauto recommend testing this/turning engine over as you would just after an oil change to ensure you get the feeder union/pipe correct.
Here are the new parts/layout, as laid out in my gym:
Am hoping to get cracking this w/e
The parts arrived today, and I was most impressed with how the items were packaged.
Here are the parts, and the hose routes, just to ensure I understand the route and where everything goes.
The only item outstanding is to ensure I get the 'from block' union correct. Thinkauto recommend testing this/turning engine over as you would just after an oil change to ensure you get the feeder union/pipe correct.
Here are the new parts/layout, as laid out in my gym:
Am hoping to get cracking this w/e
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
On a diagram I've seen for a Toyota set up, the oil went into the remote filter first, then the stat, (then the cooler), then back to the engine. Would like to clarify which way is correct before I go about sorting my kit out.
Ant
Ant
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
I did my welding training today, I am please with my results.
Here's some 2.5mm aluminium welded by me using my own machine:
Now I can get cracking making some brackets I need.
Sean
Here's some 2.5mm aluminium welded by me using my own machine:
Now I can get cracking making some brackets I need.
Sean
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Good for you for learning TIG.
Just a tip. It's a good idea to fracture your own weld (or section and polish/inspect under microscope etc) to check the penetration. Tig welds can look great with nice layering of the rod but easily can have insufficient strength because the pool in the substrate just wasn't hot (or big) enough to generate mixing.
G
Just a tip. It's a good idea to fracture your own weld (or section and polish/inspect under microscope etc) to check the penetration. Tig welds can look great with nice layering of the rod but easily can have insufficient strength because the pool in the substrate just wasn't hot (or big) enough to generate mixing.
G
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Hi guy, thanks for tip, yes I certainly want to learn how to weld properly, rather than it just looking good. So some destructive testing may be in order. I do know I need to improve my penetration. As with everything, it has to be 'fit for purpose'.
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Well done for checking the oil system layout.
For those unfamiliar with the Mocal external oil stat - they can look a bit confusing but the instructions in the pack are spot-on.
The reason they're a bit confusing - if you examine it without the instructions is that when you hold it up all the holes are open and you might expect one or other to be closed at room temp. In point of fact (see Sean's layout diagram) the cooler does receive a proportion of flow even when the oil's cold. This is necessary & logical to allow the system to bleed down. Not all the oil goes thru the cooler though.
When the oil is hot the gallery in the stat that allows the oil to U turn and go back to the engine (via the remote filter in this case) is shut off completely forcing the oil to flow entirely thru the cooler. See 1st diagram below (taken from Sean's layout) - the red arrow is the loop that is shut off in the hot condition. The other shots show how the thermostatic valve operates.
GC
For those unfamiliar with the Mocal external oil stat - they can look a bit confusing but the instructions in the pack are spot-on.
The reason they're a bit confusing - if you examine it without the instructions is that when you hold it up all the holes are open and you might expect one or other to be closed at room temp. In point of fact (see Sean's layout diagram) the cooler does receive a proportion of flow even when the oil's cold. This is necessary & logical to allow the system to bleed down. Not all the oil goes thru the cooler though.
When the oil is hot the gallery in the stat that allows the oil to U turn and go back to the engine (via the remote filter in this case) is shut off completely forcing the oil to flow entirely thru the cooler. See 1st diagram below (taken from Sean's layout) - the red arrow is the loop that is shut off in the hot condition. The other shots show how the thermostatic valve operates.
GC
- Attachments
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- external stat unions.JPG (16.06 KiB) Viewed 16824 times
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- external stat valve - cold.JPG (52.81 KiB) Viewed 16823 times
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- external stat valve - hot.JPG (59.79 KiB) Viewed 16823 times
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
It's been a while since I updated this thread. As the weather was good and I had some spare time I got cracking. So i'll bring you all up to speed.
I'm in the middle of 2 projects:
Enhanced oil control system
Refresh of front brakes
With regards to the oil system.
Here is the front as it stands now, with the old oil cooler, radiator, bumber and valance removed.
I must say there's a lot less room to play with than I was expecting. I need to get a smaller fan (from 10" down to 7 or 8") so I can get the perfect fit.
Then I need to fabricate some proper brackets to attach the rad and oil cooler assembley to the cross member much more securely.
I'm also thinking of welding some tabe onto the existing ali rad so I can bolt the upper section, therefore getting rid of the old cable ties for fastening. I may as well do this right as I have everything apart.
This is the space I have to play with:
Here is the new remote filter take-off:
This is where I am thinking of placing the oil stat/distribution block (behind the near side bumper/valance):
I am wondering of some of the unions towards the near side need to be changed from 45deg to something more appropriate for this location.
Here are the potential locations for the new remote oil filter:
Inner wing:
Space looks very tight there, so I think that may not be an option. Possibly move the unit up more and chosing different unions.
Alternative location is attached to the front cross member. The problem is this was where the old oil cooler was located:
Here is a comparison between standard pug filter and the larger one specified by Guy Croft:
I need to stop putting oil filters on too tight!
Here is something I did a few weeks ago, painted the cam cover with rthe Peugeot Talbot Sport stripes:
And lastly the reason I thought the brakes needed some proper attention. When the pad fel lto bids taking them out, I realised they were about 6 or 7 years old. even though they have probably only done 10k miles, they have had a hard life. They are mintex 1155s, I think I may go for EBC Yellowstuff pads next time, for lwoer cost and less residual brake dust.
Here are the hubs with the calipers removed, for reconditioning:
I'm in the middle of 2 projects:
Enhanced oil control system
Refresh of front brakes
With regards to the oil system.
Here is the front as it stands now, with the old oil cooler, radiator, bumber and valance removed.
I must say there's a lot less room to play with than I was expecting. I need to get a smaller fan (from 10" down to 7 or 8") so I can get the perfect fit.
Then I need to fabricate some proper brackets to attach the rad and oil cooler assembley to the cross member much more securely.
I'm also thinking of welding some tabe onto the existing ali rad so I can bolt the upper section, therefore getting rid of the old cable ties for fastening. I may as well do this right as I have everything apart.
This is the space I have to play with:
Here is the new remote filter take-off:
This is where I am thinking of placing the oil stat/distribution block (behind the near side bumper/valance):
I am wondering of some of the unions towards the near side need to be changed from 45deg to something more appropriate for this location.
Here are the potential locations for the new remote oil filter:
Inner wing:
Space looks very tight there, so I think that may not be an option. Possibly move the unit up more and chosing different unions.
Alternative location is attached to the front cross member. The problem is this was where the old oil cooler was located:
Here is a comparison between standard pug filter and the larger one specified by Guy Croft:
I need to stop putting oil filters on too tight!
Here is something I did a few weeks ago, painted the cam cover with rthe Peugeot Talbot Sport stripes:
And lastly the reason I thought the brakes needed some proper attention. When the pad fel lto bids taking them out, I realised they were about 6 or 7 years old. even though they have probably only done 10k miles, they have had a hard life. They are mintex 1155s, I think I may go for EBC Yellowstuff pads next time, for lwoer cost and less residual brake dust.
Here are the hubs with the calipers removed, for reconditioning:
- Attachments
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- oil_filter_location2.jpg (51.15 KiB) Viewed 16482 times
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- cross_member_rust.jpg (38.68 KiB) Viewed 16482 times
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- front_rust1.jpg (43.94 KiB) Viewed 16483 times
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Sean, hi
niec update, well done. This is a very widely read thread and I expect a lot of folk will be learning from it which is waht the site is all about.
If you need to swap swivels just give me a ring. 01522 705222
G
niec update, well done. This is a very widely read thread and I expect a lot of folk will be learning from it which is waht the site is all about.
If you need to swap swivels just give me a ring. 01522 705222
G
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
Managed to spare more time yesterday.
After cleaning u pthe area, I set about placing the components where I think they wil lfit, and reduce complexity in the old location, and then ensured there will be enough clearance.
Here is a view of where I think the components can go:
Oil Cooler location: Thermostat location: I understand (reading Guy's advice) is that for the air to enter the cooler, the oil air must be able to escape, so I need to drill thoygh the inner wing so there is an air feed in and out.
Need to drill holes in the back here: Next I put the bumper and valance back on to ensure there is enough clearance
Oil Cooler clearance: Thermostat clearance:
Finally, I will extend the radiator support to also hold the Remote Filter House. This gives me greater space than the place I initially looked at:
After cleaning u pthe area, I set about placing the components where I think they wil lfit, and reduce complexity in the old location, and then ensured there will be enough clearance.
Here is a view of where I think the components can go:
Oil Cooler location: Thermostat location: I understand (reading Guy's advice) is that for the air to enter the cooler, the oil air must be able to escape, so I need to drill thoygh the inner wing so there is an air feed in and out.
Need to drill holes in the back here: Next I put the bumper and valance back on to ensure there is enough clearance
Oil Cooler clearance: Thermostat clearance:
Finally, I will extend the radiator support to also hold the Remote Filter House. This gives me greater space than the place I initially looked at:
205 8v Track car
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- Posts: 120
- Joined: December 9th, 2006, 4:57 pm
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car
As part of geting ready for the various ali brackets fabrication I need to complete, today I finished my welding top.
Here's the finished welding top:
Here it is fitted snugly under my worktop when not in use:
Here are my rods mounted to the roof of my shed:
My first welding job complete :)
Sean
Here's the finished welding top:
Here it is fitted snugly under my worktop when not in use:
Here are my rods mounted to the roof of my shed:
My first welding job complete :)
Sean
205 8v Track car
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