'73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

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TomLouwrier
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by TomLouwrier »

Hi Miro, gents,

Of course a very happy, healthy and prosperous 2015 to you all!

Progressing well there Miro, good to read your updates.

I see you plan on using the standard 124 gearbox to start with. I'll be very interested to learn your experiences with that, since it has a reputation of being limited to road use / about 140 bhp (although transmissions are really specified by torque, not power).
I know of a very neat German finned alloy sump for that box that gives more oil capacity and better cooling. That should help, no idea how much.
You will probably agree that 5th gear in these boxes was an afterthought giving only 12% drop between 4th and 5th. A mild overdrive, not a proper driving gear. You should have no problems getting your hands on 125 / FSO gears or complete boxes that have slightly better spacing, especially on 5th. They are much closer to the Italian design than the Lada ones, which are poor. FSO quality was much better after the GM takeover. I have not been able to confirm the interchangeability of the FSO 5th gear cluster with the Italian box. You may have to use an entire box (again: you are much closer to all those parts and sources than me).

I'd be quite happy to discuss this with you, since it falls within my own plans for upgrading my Spider. Unfortunately lack of time and funding means I've been doing research and calcs instead of actual purchases and building :-(

regards
Tom
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Thanks Tom,

The plan to use the Porshe style steel synchro rings may do the trick. Will also look into the possibility of using an FSO 125 box.

The problem with the box is that current attachment K and attachment J of the period clearly prohibit changing the number of gears ( thus the 2k Euro Hungarian box is out) and the Italian replica of original is a prohibitive 6k Euro just for the gear set). 131 box which is like a panzer would require modification of the tunnel and once done there is no return. ( Shortening of the shaft is no problem though lengthening it later would not be likely !)

Using an upgraded 124 box is a possibility we are currently considering. At the moment it looks like the best option on the table. I have three of them so if one fails we will put another on to keep the car going, though removing a gearbox in 124 is not as easy as in 131 ( due to a crossmember position) and obviously changing it anytime soon s not a preferred solution. ) we will see what happens.

Re: German finned alloy sump for with gives more oil capacity and better cooling. This is something to consider. I would appreciate if you could help me source it. We are also looking Mocal oil accumulator (1.5 quart). This is a solution GC suggested for my 131 and it works perfectly. We have space for it and the under the hood arrangement will be done in such a way as to reserve space to fit it, if oil pressure proves to be a problem. However, oil starvation - as you know - can occur without much oil pressure drop (especially on sharp long curves) thus use of properly modified sump to start with is of key importance. This is the first order of business.

Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Re: 124 -131 gear ratios

By the way, the 131 gearbox gear ratios for gears 3-5 re very close to that of 124.
124 - 131 compare.jpg
124 - 131 compare.jpg (14.62 KiB) Viewed 30581 times
The real difference is in gears 1 and 2.

I have found the 131 ratios to be quite comfortable. The long 3rd gear is useful and the slight overdrive in the 5th serves well when using a high diff ratio (like 6.14 or 5,375).

Obviously the top seed, at such high diff ratios is reduced in favor of acceleration and ability to go uphill. It is either one of the other. The engineers have came up with such differing diff ratios select your reference based on the actual rallying conditions. Note that there were 10 different homologated diff ratios for 131 Abarth, starting with 3,63 at the low end and ending with 6,83 at high end.

There was a good reason for it

I do not think that the 124 ratios will be a problem. The question is will it sustain almost 200 Nm of torque.

We will see in practice

Miro
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TomLouwrier
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by TomLouwrier »

hi Miro,

PM sent about the alloy sump.

The 124 ratios you quote are from the close ratio Colotti Abarth Corsa, the 124 road going ones were 3,667-2,100-1,361-1,000-0,881.
Your 131 here is an Abarth too, the regular ones had 3,612-2,045-1,357-1,000-0,834 (as far as I know). You see the 131 road box has a more modern (longer) 5th. Good for highways and cruising with even less noise and fuel consumption than the original 0,881 5th which was just a mild overdrive added to a 4-speed design.

You should judge a box by the overall ratio (1st/top) in order to see its' spacing and thus character. As far as my information goes:
- 124 road: 3,667/0,881 = 4,160 (very short 'overdrive' 5th, uneven spacing)
- 131 road: 3,612/0,834 = 4,331 (that's due to the longer 5th gear. A much better spacing for modern driving)
- 131 Abarth: 3,612/0,870 = 4,151 (pretty much identical to the 124 road, no idea why they chose that again)
- 124 Abarth (Colotti): 2,724/0,840 = 3,242 (close box, nice even spacing between all gears, bit of a longish 3rd)
Practically all our road boxes are around 4,2 - 4,7. The close ratio ones range between 3,2 - 2,7. Quite a difference!

So for competition you may assume: the shorter, the better. Overall gearing can then be set up by selecting differentials, usually the required 'top speed in top gear' determines the diff and all the rest follows from that.
All road boxes always have 1st and 2nd very low because of the need to drive a saloon up a hill from standstill with you, your wife, 3 kids fighting in the back, a full load of luggage in the boot and probably a towing a caravan too.... A sports car with less weight and a more powerful engine can do with a lot less reduction. As trade off you get all gears much closer together so you can keep the engine on full song.

Regarding torque: the highest numbers I have found for cars with the 124 road box are the 2000 Volumex (206Nm) and the 2000 turbo (172Nm). All competition cars and Abarth Stradas had a Colotti or Cima box. You mileage may vary... literally :-)

regards
Tom
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

You are right Tom,

The ones I quoted are Abarth Collotti ratios. the proper standard 124 box ratios are:
124 standart box ratios.jpg
124 standart box ratios.jpg (39.53 KiB) Viewed 30556 times
The differences between standard 131 and standard 124 do not seem excessive, though I fully agree with your comments.

It looks like I will have to work with diff ratios as the box ratios seem to be fixed for me.

Well we have to make do with what we have.

Miro
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TomLouwrier
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by TomLouwrier »

There may be an obscure option as last resort, if you're willing to go mix'n'match with parts from different Fiat and FSO boxes. Looks workable on paper but no idea if they will acutally fit together in the real world.
I'll come back to you about that.

Tom
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Well,

Ths is exactly my secret plan.

What I have decided is to give my box to an gearbox expert friend whu has cut all his teeth on FSO Fiat type gearboxes. I told him :
-"I do not care what you put in it as long as it works and fits the car - just make it fly !!!"

He replied : but just do not ask me how I dd it . it is my t4rade secret .

Hopefully he will do his magic and make it work Abarth style ...

Rgds

Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Need small part !

Just bought handles of the early style ...
new handles.jpg
new handles.jpg (21.2 KiB) Viewed 29594 times
A small but painful problem appeared .
The new handles did not have anything to keep the lock in place and connect the back of the key cylinder to the main door lock

There should be a small plate / lever with a push in connector that enables you to connect the back of the key cylinder to the door lock.
Turning of the key releases a latch blocking door from opening , and pushing the button actually releases to door lock and opens the door.
There is also a small spring to return the key to its proper position.

These handles often brake. Main cause is braking of a one of two bolts mounting the handle to the door. Once this brakes the handle is useless.

I desperately need two of such broken handles , just for parts, or just the small parts that bold to the back of the handle.

Anybody by chance have such spares?

Rgds

Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Typical "building a replica" problems : "making it look like an original"

Here everything is in the detail.
As you know the car we are working on is a CS0 US version and it is to look as a CSA .
So one of the issues we are facing is the external body looks.

The most obvious are most visible differences:

1/ different front markers and indicators
2/ front and rear side markers
3/ rear lights
4/ tank cap
5/ doors and handles

To make them look right some parts and some body work is required. Fortunately, most parts are easily available.

The front indicators now look like this :
124 abarth Winner 73 Rally Poland.jpg
124 abarth Winner 73 Rally Poland.jpg (119.89 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
I am quite happy with it.

The side markers will be removed and welded over while on the front fender there will be a small turn signal repeater:
1973 side .jpg
1973 side .jpg (29.02 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
side repeater.jpg
side repeater.jpg (17.58 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
Rear lights ;
rear lights .jpg
rear lights .jpg (18.61 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
They are not cheap but available. I got my replicas for a decent price in Germany:
rear replicas .jpg
rear replicas .jpg (31.13 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
Tank cap : Monza style caps are readily available and not too expensive:
1978 Andrej Jaroszewcz original..jpg
1978 Andrej Jaroszewcz original..jpg (32.32 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
Making the doors fit the old style handle is only a torch and a hummer away. What I have found to be most frustrating was the handles. Or actually the little plates that screw to the back of the lock cylinder and serve to connect to the main door lock are the hardest to find.

I bought my new replica handles ( very nice ) in Germany , but these vacanot be connected to the door lock and in fact the key cylinders will not stay in place unless you have these little devils.
Finding a set of these plates sold separately proved to be impossible, so I had to buy another set set of (complete0 used handles in US - just to get these two small parts.
handle parts to find .jpg
handle parts to find .jpg (39.84 KiB) Viewed 29740 times
Oh, well - if is a never ending story to make all elements be and look right.
Unfortunately I am sure there will me more such small frustrating issues as we go along. There always are.

Hopefully, however , we have solved the rod ends for the anti roll bars by ordering a set specially designed for high wear and corrosive environment. The rods we got are all pre- tenssioned , which means they will not rattle after just a few rallies. I use the same kind on my 131 and after several years of use we see no signs of wear whatsoever.

Well, the never-ending story continues.

Miro
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miro-1980
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

This is just to confirm I am still alive and have not abandoned the project.
big shl_img_8778.jpg
big shl_img_8778.jpg (307.91 KiB) Viewed 29727 times
This recent picture from rally Bohemia clearly shows that a standard suspension is not for sport !

Good news : we have bought a 1800 cc engine for this project and are working with Guy on the sump and other details

The project is planned for completion early next year.

Will try to update this thread more regularly , now

Miro

PS: just to make sure we all know the 131 is also in full working order :
This is a recent picture from a rally in Austria:
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for GCE.jpg
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Help needed

It has come to my attention that gr 4 replica tanks, FIA homlogated roll cages and aluminum door sheets for 124 Abarth are available somewhere in Germany.

Anybody in the know ?

Rgds

Miro
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TomLouwrier
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by TomLouwrier »

Miro, good to see you back!

Just did a quick search and find OMP lists roll cages for the 124 Abarth. They have dealers in Germany but 2 in Poland as well.
Haven't found a German producer though. Will have another look this weekend.

gr
Tom
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by Spider 1969 »

Hi Miro,

Aluminium doorplates available in Holland.
I'll PM you on this.

Regards,

Charles
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Charles,

Thank you very much indeed !

I have send an email to the seller , to make sure this will fit my US version.

If he confirms I will take these panels for my 124 !

APPRECIATE YOUR HELP

Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

TomLouwrier wrote:Miro, good to see you back!

Just did a quick search and find OMP lists roll cages for the 124 Abarth. They have dealers in Germany but 2 in Poland as well.
Haven't found a German producer though. Will have another look this weekend.

gr
Tom
Tom ,

Thank you my friend. If you find Polish dealers this will be fine as well.

They may sell it with a bit of a markup but at least this is done locally ,and if there is a problem it will bve easier to deal with.

Miro
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