Lada TC from north...

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Urbancamo
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Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 1st, 2011, 6:52 pm

Hi again folks!

I wanted to show you another Lada, this time with proper engine! In the old days (late 80's) TC equipped, street legal Ladas were not so uncommon in Finland.
Novadays, there are only few of them left anymore. They are a piece of Finnish Lada heritage absolutely...

Car is built with my friend in long time period. Car was MOTed with TC engine in 2006. Real easy job what comes to paper work.
I have to say, even Lada is Fiat clone, TC is not definetly meant here. Space issues everywhere.

Car is 1988 model Lada 1200S. Originally equipped with hideous brown interior and 60 hp 1198cc engine...if you can imagine a super lazy engine, this is it. Real no show - no go-car.
Original engine gets this car 0-120 km/h (0-75 mph) in over 30 seconds...Fiat TC does that in 14 seconds. Best 0-60 mph is just over 9 seconds...
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Best reading you can have - no doubt about that.
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Deep suede steering wheel. Using light race gloves or steering wheel cover, you can't drive these with bare hands, suede goes slippery and rips to pieces.
But with gloves, there is no better feel. Your hands stay intact like they were glued...
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Compomotive ML 15x7 ET0
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Don't worry - air filter socks removed just for show purpose.
Classic parts everywhere, IDF's, Malpassi Filter King, Crane XR700 ignition etc.
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Finnish made exhaust manifold for Lada/Fiat TC-conversion! You cannot find these anymore...
Otherwise, you see a lot ot of custom fabricated parts, Fiat parts, Lada parts...no bolt-on here, definetly!
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Original starter versus race starter. 50% weight difference, but same power!
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This is why we fitted smaller starter, there is no room for original starter! Exhaust heat killed this one always when driven hot...
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Car specs:

- Shocks: Bilstein B6 Rallye & Koni Sport adjustable
- 3.9 ratio differential equipped with clutchpack LSD, which has 6 kg preload

- 15*7 inch real Compomotive ML:s straight from England

- Fiat Argenta 1585cc engine, fully overhauled
- block decked X? mm, pistons over deck 0,2 mm
- compression approx. 9.5:1
- 2 litre head and cams, fully overhauled
- adjustable camwheels, made in Finland
- Lada flywheel with Lada Niva clutch pack, balanced of course
- Lada 5 speed gearbox with Redline MT-90 oil

- Weber IDF 40 carbs in short Alquati manifold
- Crane XR700 optical trigger ignition
- steel 4-1 exhaust manifold
- 2,25" exhaust with Finnish Made Martelius free flow-silencers

- lightweight (3 kg) gear reducer race starter

Interior:

- König sports seats from Germany
- 350 mm deep suede steering wheel
- extended gear lever
- mechanical oil pressure gauge

- Bosch 225 Rallye lights with 100W H3 bulbs for dark winter roads...

Engine was taken from overly rusted Fiat Argenta, i could say hopelesly rusted Fiat as they usually are. There was no fenders, floor panels, side skirts...no use for that, scrap metal only, not a car anymore.

We junked all the floor mats etc. because they were all moulded and stinked like no tomorrow. Cleaner race look.

Car is built for hard driving and has suffered numerous dent's for exdeeding your own driving skills, but hey, it's fun!
This car definetly isn't builded to be a showroom queen...no no.
In winter, car spins both 195 mm wide studded backwheels easily even with 4th gear! With proper LSD, car is still real pleasure to drive sideways, power just never stops.

You just never get bored to roaring sound of IDF's...if you have a bad day, just put pedal to the metal and in seconds there's a big grin in your face.
Just an unique sound under the Lada's bonnet.
Definetly dying heritage, novadays every one fit fuel injections and programmable ignitions, no doubt about their good sides, but hey, these engines are simple and reliable, so keep it that way!

I like to do it OLD school style..!

Future plans are just plans jet, but i can say we go again little closer to real race car. Next year maybe, but now we are focusing on upcoming winter.

Hope you like:

- Tommi
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Guy Croft
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Guy Croft » September 2nd, 2011, 9:13 am

MODEL POST!

Another good one, thanks very much. I like your posting style - well done. And the car does look 'the business'..!

Interested in what you say about space issues, we had no such problems with the Lotus Lada - but we used the 131 5 speed gearbox not the Lada one.

G

Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 2nd, 2011, 4:52 pm

If using Fiat gearbox, there is some serious space issues. Have to cut transmission tunnel a lot, custom made clutch fork and driveshaft etc.
Btw. we call Fiat box thats has smooth sides, not the waffle-sided, logically "smooth-sided" Fiat gearbox.

I can buy fully renovated Lada gearbox approx 180 GBP, and with good oil like Redline and reasonable shifting box lasts forever.
Car has enough power - no need for microsecond shifting.

I've wrecked only one Lada gearbox and it suffered bearing damage.

Reason why Lada gearboxes broke are:

- gearbox's rear axle nut gets loose over the time and axles can freely separate under torque. That brokes everything.
- lousy maintenace. Cheap car - cheap maintenace



In Great Britain, you drive on the right side of car, you have plenty of room on the inlet side. You could fit even DCOE's with easy.

Every Fiat that has LHD drive, suffers the limited space on inlet side.

This Lada had these problems:

- Even with super short Alquati manifold brake booster is on the way. Had to grind inlet manifold corner down. Then we moved the brake booster as much as we could in it's mounts. 5 mm to side and 3-4 mm down.
Then we tilted engine a bit, couple degrees. Now there's a 7 mm clearance and no touching anymore
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Attached image on birds eye-perspective where you can see better. Splitted cambelt cover in half - could be taken of without draining water. Easy to adjust cams.
I have seen cambelt jumping when driving on snow bank, engine bay got full of snow and jumped the cambelt. Car was Lancia Delta Integrale!
Timing belt is so vulnerable without cover.

- Engine is so close to the firewall that rear water jacket had touchdown with that. Had to move and adjust engine's position several times

- Exhaust manifold collector is TIGHT fit between steering linkages. Had to grind-fit-tack weld good long period. If you fit collector carelesly, you have terrible rattle when steering is on the edge and limited wheel turning. You don't want that, Ladas wheels turns so little in original condition

- Limited space behind rear carb. Can't fit decent air cleaner box, no room, using lousy filter socks....only good way to solve that would be exhaust cambox mounted distributor and straight inlet manifold.

Otherwise, bolt-on.

Next thing to do is fit rear-facing bonnet scoop to lower engine bay temps. It's like Finnish sauna when opening the hood after run.
Using Fiat 127 original bonnet scoop which is nice piece.
I found an example on Guy's book with nice yellow Lada. Do you have any advice what's the best location for that? I've thought to mount it about here as shown on picture:
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If someone disagrees, let me know. Don't have lot of exprerience with this kind of things...

- T
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Guy Croft
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Guy Croft » September 3rd, 2011, 9:13 am

Ah - lHD, I figured as much! Thanks for your constructive explanation.

Re cooling please study the long ('never ending story'..) thread by Miroslaw about his 131 Abarth replica in Readers' Cars. It is all covered intensively there.

In short the duct placement you have indicated is good but you may need more than just that, esp a properly laid-out sealed carb intake system.

G

Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 3rd, 2011, 4:44 pm

Thanks Guy:

Readed miro's great technical writings about air venting and understanded much more!

About this cars engine bay temp; it's hilarious in winter when you have snow on bonnet...right side of the bonnet melts in minutes and gets bone-dry after while...and car is still moving constantly!

Carb intake system has been in plans so long that now is time. If i can't find proper aftermarket airbox, i'll do it myself from stainless steel. I't wont be pretty, but hey, i'm not up to that.
Cold air, that's what this car needs.

Looking for shorter air horns, otherwise the air box won't fit. Bonnet clearance is an issue here. Other option is to make some kind of bump on bonnet above the carbs. Will see what's the most efficient solution...
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Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 5th, 2011, 12:01 pm

Ok, started to design airbox. I've thought it for long time. Intake air temp is ridiculously high, haven't measured that, but it's high. There is also problems with finding decent air cleaners. Because of limited space, aftermarket products don't exist.
You can mount some box air cleaner in front carb, but rear carb...absolute no space.

1 mm stainless steel is just nicely rigid for this purpose and can be cutted nicely with steel quillotine (i don't know the exact name for that, but you know what i mean)
Maybe sides will be thinner plate, we'll see.

Found miro's desing, nice piece. There's loads of space in Fiat Mirafiori. Engine sits straight in the engine bay, has load of clearance behind rear carb and engine is also very deep in in engine bay so it has lot of vertical space over carbs.

None of these are in Lada with TC engine, so it's little more complicated. Is there any thoughts how many litres the airbox should have capacity?
Current air horns are 40 mm long. Only clearance issue is number 1 cylinder. I don't know exact amount to bonnet, but it's 30-50 mm (have to measure that)
But that isn't a big deal, i'll do some bump on the bonnet if it's needed.
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Drawed quickly some scetching for the baseplate. I'm not a cad designer so little errors might be seen. There is very little clearance behind rear carb, but we can deal with that.

Firstly i'll do the big baseplate with carb mountings and then we'll be thinking more of the shape for box. Easier to cut metal than add that!
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Guy Croft
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Guy Croft » September 5th, 2011, 12:19 pm

This sketch may help a bit, done for a client in Turkey.

You can probably fit short rampipes from say Dellorto DRLA carbs.

Needless to say an airbox needs to be able to withstand vibration. There are two routes:

1. Make it light from a material like glassfibre that will deflect and distort without fracture and can tolerate a high level of vibration
or
2. Make it heavy from metal (aluminium alloy or mild steel) and then it really must be a robust & quite stiff structure.

G
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IDF airbox scheme
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Brit01
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Brit01 » September 5th, 2011, 6:40 pm

Hi Tommi,

Have you also considered insulating those heat generating exhaust manifolds?

Although they can corrode faster due to condensation building up under the material wrapped around them may still be worth while.

Nice example of a Lada. Congrats.
Lots of room in the engine bay to work in. I like that very much.

Chris

Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 5th, 2011, 8:03 pm

I have consired that but as i said, these manifolds are rare. If this manifold ever gets totally corroded, i consider using standard manifold and standard secondaries.

In the past i had to insulate wiring harnesses next to manifold. Used foundry workers protective helmet visor!
Lada has originally a mat inside bonnet. Had to rip it off because when driven hot and then shutted the car, mat was smoking!

Yes, there is more room in engine bay than Fiat Spider for example, but as shown earlier, tight spaces here also.

Tomorrow couple hundred kilometer road trip with this car. Getting hood scoop on the same trip.
Car isn't as thirsty somebody might think, considering it hasn't even vacuum advance distributor and micture is little rich side on light throttle.
It takes approx. 9L/100 km when cruising. I'm happy with that, because with original engine it takes almost same and goes absolutely nowhere!
With this engine, overtaking couldn't be easier. Half throttle and job done. No need to shift lower gear from fifth!
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Guy Croft
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Guy Croft » September 6th, 2011, 10:26 am

A client of mine & site member left this setup with me for sale, it's still here.

I cannot guarantee he would 'split' the parts but as you can see nice Hormann airbox, tidy set of IDF 40 carbs and a 'Hormann' inlet manifold (more likely an Alquati type but with 'Hormann lettering machined into it) with offset for block mounted distributor.

If you can strike a deal with him you might have an answer to your airbox issue quite quickly. I cannot be sure though that the hole centers carb-airbox will be identical to yours and bit of 'alteration' might be needed.

Let me know if you're interested in it and I can put you both in touch.

G
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Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 6th, 2011, 10:35 am

That's a real nice box! Compact and nice looking.

Intake manifold looks like Alquati one. Carbs seem to be as close as they are in Lada. Had to grind center nuts a bit in order to fit them.

I'll be back tomorrow.
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Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 15th, 2011, 10:02 pm

Update:
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Installed hood scoop. Came from Fiat 127, OE piece of scoop. I cutted decent size hole under it. No mesh or nothing. Just a hole. No need for cosmetic things.

Affects. No direct affects on engine temp while driving steady speed, but noticed immeadiately that when slowing down like on the freeway to lets say 30-40 kph, engine temp didn't wan't to rise anymore.
Bonnet isn't so burning hot anymore after driving. Scoop vents hot air nicely when the car is stopped.

Engine temp is now 80-82 C when ambient temp is 10-15 C. External thermostat is rated to 80C.



Air box still in design stage. Found a buddy who is master with TIG welding and steel working, he promised to do airbox and supplied some scetching too.
Will decide wich is the best solution. We had long conversation with air box shape and he wanted to do box with wery rounded egdes.
Does the shape really matter and how much?

Rampipes that are now installed, are 45 mm long and from Dellorto DRLA carbs. I will fit 15 or 28 mm long rampipes in order to get reasonable clearance to the airbox roof. I suppose that 4 centimetres or 1,57 inches is enough clearance?

There is approx. 70 mm clearance in to air horn base to bonnet without touchdown. That's the new airbox height. Baseplate will be 180 x 350 mm, so capacity will be approx 4.5 litres.
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Picture how much room is behind the rear carb. Makes things a lot harder, but problems are designed to be solved...

-T
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WhizzMan
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by WhizzMan » September 16th, 2011, 8:50 am

With rounded shapes, you have less chance on reflections and resonance. There are some excellent pointers on how high and wide you should dimension trumpets, boxes and all that in the thread about the Lancia delta inlet manifold recently made.
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Urbancamo
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Urbancamo » September 22nd, 2011, 7:14 pm

Update:

Bonnet scoop is really working. Now when it rains heavily, right side of the bonnet don't go bone-dry anymore. Water stays on the bonnet. It obviously tells that exhaust heat is getting out under the bonnet!



Attached a thermometer over number 2 cylinder air horn to measure intake temp. Ambient temp was 13-14 deg C.
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Driving steady 90 km/h speed.

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After a hard 1-2-3-4 launch.

This got me little confused and i attached thermometer element further away from air horn. Still almost the same results.

So there is clearly nice cool air available without air box? i thought i would see temps over 30 deg C or more. Maybe 40 deg C.

We found that airbox is real PITA to fabricate. Tested several baseplates and shapes. There is absolutely no space behind the rear carb.
You could fit a nice foam box air filter because it will bend slightly when touching the firewall. But hard airbox, no.

Maybe we concentrate insulating exhaust with stainless steel covers and insulate the carb area too with plating. And then cold air piping in vicinity of carbs.
I think that's the best and most efficient solution.

This is still a fast road car - not a race car.

T
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Guy Croft
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Re: Lada TC from north...

Post by Guy Croft » September 23rd, 2011, 3:08 pm

So there is clearly nice cool air available without air box? i thought I would see temps over 30 deg C or more. Maybe 40 deg C.

Can be but you have to check. But - beware of build-up of heat when car is stationery with engine running potentially as some speed - for several minutes, waiting to go. I guess you have that covered - you certainly know what you're doing.

This is the point,readers of this excellent thread, about underhood temperature survey - until you check you don't know and certainly can't assume. I have certainly known engines to detonate when suddenly put under very hard load after sitting revving up on the start line - from build-up of underhood heat over a relatively short period of time.

G

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