My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

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samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 13th, 2012, 11:15 am

Thank you for your input!

I will try and get the NGK B9EGV spark plugs today and change them over. Also the OE 8V ECU is on it's way already.

I guess that with the OE ECU the car should be better since it is virtually standard except ported head, NA intake cam and slightly lower compression ratio. I will check of course as soon as I get it and report the AFR's.
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Guy Croft
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 13th, 2012, 12:37 pm

"But I don't still get it why you should run your boosted engine with almost liquid fuel"

I made the point in my last - that you will contaminate the oil and damage the bearings and rings. No engine should be fuelled any richer than is needed for best power.

That is no subject for guesswork - it is either set up right on a dyno or it's going to be miles out.

GC
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Guy Croft
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 13th, 2012, 12:43 pm

"I guess that with the OE ECU the car should be better since it is virtually standard except ported head, NA intake cam and slightly lower compression ratio. I will check of course as soon as I get it and report the AFR's"

well Samo - you have 'nailed' your underfuelling problem in one stroke. You cannot do that. "Virtually standard apart from etc etc..."

Those head/cam mods would give much higher massflow. And if they did not what would be the point of doing it? Higher air massflow + more gasoline = more power. Higher massflow without more gasoline = less power/overlean/detonation.

I have been saying this for years to callers, here and in my book etc. How is the OE ECU supposed to know what mods you have done and provide more gasoline? You tell me!

It still thinks it's a standard engine.

GC
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samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 13th, 2012, 10:19 pm

Thanks again for the input Guy. I would like to point out that I am "bodging" the AFR until i get the engine run in enough to have it set up properly on dyno!

This is why I hope the OE ECU will handle half throttle, low boost, etc... I am in no way trying to get the OE ECU to work with all the modifications in the long run. But I do want to run in the engine before doing the dyno!

I did change the spark plugs to NGK B9EGV according to your suggestion already! I do sometimes do what i am told (don't tell my wife) Didn't drive much so can't really comment on the behavior of the engine.

The issue I have is that the second ECU i received from the forum member behaves the same as mine! The car starts but doesn't run well and does not respond to throttle... I don't get it. Any ideas???

The car runs on a DEDRA 2.0 Turbo ECU, integrale 8V KAT ECU, Delta 1,6 HF Turbo ECU. But it won't run on it's own ECU! I am lost
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Todays goodies. OE ECU, racing spark plugs, drivers door panel, new gear gaiter...
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timinator
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by timinator » July 13th, 2012, 11:09 pm

Hi samo, After reading GC's last post I realized that you are hoping to match a non-adjustable ecu to your engine and have no piggyback system to modify fuel or timing. The co trimmer you mentioned I assumed was an air fuel controller similar to a SAFC . It seems it is not. If you can't modify the input to the stock ecu, and fool it into seeing a different air flow, then you have no way to make up for the differences between your engine and the engine the ecu was built to control. When I stated that your afr numbers seemed o.k. it was with the idea in mind that it would be safe enough to drive the car for data logging purposes only. You could start to create a new map. I did not mean that they were in any way acceptable as a finished tune.

The term pig rich is not one I use. 11.5 afr is something that applies to a very specific set of engine conditions. It might be too rich for an N.A. engine but when you start tuning a turbo engine it isn't unusual. Tuning for max output and reasonable egt it happens often. That doen't mean the engine runs at 11.5 afr all the time.

Tim

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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 14th, 2012, 9:05 am

Samo - the swap ecu is giving the same lean running condition at steady-load and transient.

I don't think you can modify the standard ecu. This engine needs a whole new management system. You should not be driving it at all until that is in place and set up. You're looking a large bill. Running off limits on fuelling causes more damage than you might think.

If anyone thinks the standard ecu can be modified and bolted-in don't talk about it here do it all and send it to Samo.

I'd be interested to hear via pm which member supplied this new ecu that is no better than yours.

I have remarked on the issue of modified engines & standard ecu almost more than anything on this site and I am astonished it has happened here.

GC
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samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 18th, 2012, 7:31 pm

Dear all,

after discussing with numerous people about raising fuel pressure a bit to see what effect it had on AFR (usually not big) I went to the garage and started playing with the fuel regulator. And since I didn't have much time and the adjustment screw has rusted solid I drenched it in oil and left to soak over night. After that I went to try and find my spare regulator... after comming home I decided to see if a new OE regulator can be bought when it struck me like lightening! The identical regulator is used on 8V integrale and on the 16V version BUT the one for 8V is set to 3 BAR and the 16V one is set to 2,5 BAR!!! And when my 8V regulator died I swaped it with a 16V one as both have 3 bar stamped on them :)

Didn't have a meter to test the pressure so I set it by eye repots of others (one turn about one bar) and tested the AFR... Will check with a meter once I get it.

Looks much better now:
-idle 12-13
-normal driving 13-14
-under low boost 12-13

Not optimal or anything but far more normal than it used to be! Will check the spark plug color tomorrow because it was tooooo hot today.
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 19th, 2012, 8:04 am

mmm...

I hope that puts this project on the 'road to recovery'...!

G
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samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 19th, 2012, 9:02 pm

Unfortunately I only did about 25 km with the new spark plugs and fueling set up so the spark plug color isn't the best. Also the picture is a bit too bright as it was shot with a flash!

Ground electrode is light gray, "top ring" is black the rest doesn't have any color.

I think I need to take the car for a longer run to check the color of the plugs.
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Colors, colors, colors...
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Guy Croft
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 20th, 2012, 8:32 am

That coloration is absolutely perfect for the conditions under which you have run it, see plug left/center below.

Watch out for the insulation and ground electrode (the L shaped one) turning yellow/white or signs of blistering - overheated or too lean. That said the B9EGV are unlikely to overheat on your unit with its relatively low boost setting so if that coloration/condition happens it's going too lean.

As the rings bed in the engine will burn less oil and under heavier load the outer region of the plug (the round steel bit) will ideally turn a bit grey-er (if optimal) or light brown (if fractionally rich).

G
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Guy Croft, owner

samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 20th, 2012, 10:11 am

Thank you for the input! I was just trying to find something similar to this on the web. I will do a longer run next weekend and will check spark plug color again.

If anyone is interested look up the ngk website and check the Home » Tech Support » Spark Plugs » Faqs some interesting horror pictures!


What kind of anti seize do you recommend for the spark plug thread? I read trough the NGK website that they do not recommend anti seize compounds. Interestingly I just remembered a word of wisdom from my grand father who told me that he was thought to use a pencile and rub graphite on the thread. This was suppose to improve conductivity and work as an anti seize lubricant also! (This originates from the 30s and 40s!)

More importantly I have a question regarding the dyno chart that you published on the previous page. Maybe it's a stupid question but I just don't know. Here goes. Is this a full throttle run from idle or is the throttle applied gradually? I found that i can have AFR raging from from lambda 0,8 to 1,1 at 3000 rpm depending on throttle position! Bare in mind I am still in the brake in period and i am not applying full throttle yet and keeping it bellow 4000rpm.

If I apply 1/2 to 3/4 throttle while driving the AFR drops to 0.8 - 0.9 immediately.

If I apply 1/4 throttle I get 0.9 - 1.0.

But if I apply the throttle gradually and slooooooooowly than the lambda goes from 0,8 slowly to 1,1 at 3000 rpm and then starts dropping.
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Guy Croft
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by Guy Croft » July 20th, 2012, 10:33 am

... all dyno tests are done at full throttle!

Plug threads use copper-based anti-seize.



G
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WhizzMan
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by WhizzMan » July 21st, 2012, 11:07 am

Setting up the stock ECU for modified engines is possible, but it requires a rolling road dyno and someone that has studied the programming of the ECU so they know where and how to make the changes. Those people are rare, most firms that advertise tuning simply program in mappings designed by others for stock cars and wouldn't know how to do custom tuning.

Using piggy back ECUs is something I don't generally recommend. They basically fool the existing ECU into thinking conditions are different than they are in reality and you are adding two lies to make one truth. Keeping the lies consistent so the truth is actually the truth is much harder and more complicated than just dealing with the truth in the first place. "Bending" reality is much harder and usually has limits as to how far you can bend it and still get away with it. Therefor, I usually recommend to either use the stock ECU with reprogramming, or replace it altogether with a unit that is capable of doing what you want. Piggybacks that can really do what you want tend to cost just as much as a full ECU and are usually incredibly complicated to put on the car, leaving no real advantages of using one.

Performance runs on the dyno are done full throttle, but setting up ECUs for road use (or the more extensive race setups) require (almost) all load points to be tested. Load points are usually fields in the ECU where the computer has stored settings for. X amount of throttle, Y amount or RPM and then the dyno has to brake the engine to keep the RPM constant. The tuner then sets the desired fuel ratio and will test what ignition advance gives the most torque, without making the engine ping. If there is a turbo on the engine, you have a whole extra dimension you have to deal with and you have to set that up at the same time. If you really want the best of the best, you even adjust warm up parameters, starting and emergency limp home programming and all that, so altering the engine has no effect on usability of the car under any circumstances, apart from the added power.

My advice would be to find a reputable tuning company that knows your ECU and engine setup, has a good 4wd rolling road dyno and have them figure out how to solve this. There are way too many variables to deal with yourself without the "proper" equipment. Maybe an experienced tuner would be able to do this with just an afr meter, det cans, laptop and testing on the road, but doing it yourself is probably going to take a lot of trial and error before you get results. Especially tweaking the "pierburg valve" that controls the waste gate is not a straightforward process on this setup and will have you cursing quite a few times if you attempt it yourself. If you are determined to do it yourself, try and get a pre-programmed ECU chip that has been made for an engine with the same modifications. You aren't the first person on the planet to put an NA cam in and port the head, so at least you'd be starting with programming that is a lot closer to what would be ideal for your engine.
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samo
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by samo » July 26th, 2012, 9:32 pm

Well since I just had to measure the full throttle AFR I had a good excuse to go for a drive today...

Under normal driving conditions I have AFR between 14-15 now. And if I step on the accelerator at 2000 rpm the AFR drops to 13-14, and as soon as I have boost the AFR goes to 12.2-13!

Sorry for the amateur drawing will get a plotted one when it's dynoed this one is made by me writing down numbers I recorded on a set of videos.

http://youtu.be/-YY93kUGqcY

Created a small to do list for myself today:
-have to check fuel pressure with a manual gauge (already ordered)
-have to check oil pressure (suspecting the dial is off - reading 0 oil pressure on tick over warning light is OFF) (also reading only 10V on voltmeter, temperature is also off by 10 degrees, fuel gauge fluctuates by 1/2 tank)
- fixing the front bumper (second one is already in the paint shop)
- refurbishing the wheels (already in process)
- proper rear silencer
- wheel alignment
- I have a knock coming from the suspension that I still haven't managed to trace
- front windscreen washer two way split / one way valve unit has fallen appart
- have to replace the connector that let me down last time and the water temperature sensor connector is also gonna be replaced as it is missing the security clip

So hang on I am not finished yet...
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AFR&boost / RPM
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TomLouwrier
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Re: My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

Post by TomLouwrier » July 27th, 2012, 11:41 am

Hi Samo,
-have to check oil pressure (suspecting the dial is off - reading 0 oil pressure on tick over warning light is OFF) (also reading only 10V on voltmeter, temperature is also off by 10 degrees, fuel gauge fluctuates by 1/2 tank)
Looks like the voltage stabilizer for the instruments may be off. Most cars have a separate part of the dashboard (usually the instrument cluster) running on 12V exactly, to get accurate readings.
The rest of the car gets around 13,4V from the generator, but this may be near 12,6 or up to 14V. Too much variation for the instruments.

regards
Tom
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