Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

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cantfindausername
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by cantfindausername »

Thanks mate. :-)
Guy Croft
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by Guy Croft »

Looking at your latest photos of the car, I would be very concerned about the effect of a front-end crash.

You should give some detailed consideration to this. One thing that springs to mind is the strength of the bonnet retaining pins which, if it's a steel bonnet, won't do much to stop the thing scything right thru the windscreen. If you're lucky the wipers might catch it..

That I have seen. Note: I don't want to spoil the party.

GC
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

Guy Croft wrote:Looking at your latest photos of the car, I would be very concerned about the effect of a front-end crash.

You should give some detailed consideration to this. One thing that springs to mind is the strength of the bonnet retaining pins which, if it's a steel bonnet, won't do much to stop the thing scything right thru the windscreen. If you're lucky the wipers might catch it..

That I have seen. Note: I don't want to spoil the party.

GC
Hi Guy, Safety first as always, so I welcome any comments in this are (or any other actually). The bonnet is Carbon Fibre and weighs a mere 3kgs. So i'd imagine the 4 pins would be fine in this application; but i'm happy to hear otherwise.

Sean
205 8v Track car
Guy Croft
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by Guy Croft »

OK, I'm not sure how rigid that carbon fibre item will be in bending - if it crumples it's not really a threat, but if it's way stiff it could be.

Steel bonnet locking pins (if good quality - not made in Chiner) are only as strong as the region they're fixed too, those areas may need ribbing or otherwise reinforcing with welded-in steel plates. Those pins are prone to tear right out. Now if you hae one at each corner, it does spread the impact load in event of a crash, distributing it better than say if there were two front mounted pins only. Thus a well-pinned bonnet helps to absorb impact.

I myself would want more than that, perhaps steel strut brace over the radiator diagonally braced to the bulkhead. This will stiffen the chassis too. Will improve handling response some although any added stiffness at front end will increase tendency to understeer.

If your car is not fully seam-welded - best get on with that. Spot-welded car bodies open up very readily when subjected to sever impact, two particular at-risk regions include sills and footwell.

I hope others will add experienced views, esp anyone who has crashed.

GC
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

I made loads of checks yesterday evening to see if all was well before it goes off for mapping. I had a heart raising minute as the braided oil gauge line made contact with the FIA switch terminal, and it got rather hot rather quickly. It's all taped up now, together with the ignition switch!

I also note that oil is making it's way out of the new oil filler cap on the cam cover. This must be linked with the fact the oil pressure is ~90PSI at idle. Is this too much ? I'm sure this engine has the 'Group A' 6 bar oil spring. Is this a good or bad thing ?

So to mark the last 7 months of enhancements I gave the car a good clean and polish. You wouldn’t believe how dirty it was, it took some significant effort to get is very clean. I has to use some professional detailing products I use for our road cars to get it as clean as i'm happy with.
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Sean
205 8v Track car
cantfindausername
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by cantfindausername »

Thats such a tidy car! Love it!! Nice BM too!
smckeown
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

Hi guy,

Thanks for your attention, I always appreciate your time.

Here are the pictures of the pins and their locations:
bay3.jpg
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Guy Croft wrote:I myself would want more than that, perhaps steel strut brace over the radiator diagonally braced to the bulkhead.
With regards to the strut brace you mention, I think the cage horizontal bar under the steering column would serve the purpose you are aluding to ? as per my cage picture here:
cage unpainted.jpg
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Guy Croft wrote: If your car is not fully seam-welded - best get on with that. Spot-welded car bodies open up very readily when subjected to sever impact, two particular at-risk regions include sills and footwell.
It's not seam welded currently. The peugeots seem to glues in terms of the floor and bulkhead. This ios something I might consider at the end of this season (if it actually starts for me)

The car has been prepared professionally, so I do expect an element of thought and fitness for purpose regarding many of the safety elements you mention. I mean, that's what I pay for when I outsource such jobs.
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by Guy Croft »

Sean, hi

Oil pressure - 90 psi is way too much, you only want 15-20psi or so at idle and 55-70 tops under load. The pump on your motor delivers very high volume as well as (potentially) very high pressure so there is no need (ie: it's a bad thing) to run it set at high pressure. That kind of pressure can blow the cam seal out of the head, and if that's on a hot engine at idle, it's going to be way higher cold or at high rpm.

Pressure is needed to force the oil round the oil gallery circuit, the longer the circuit or taller the engine the more 'force' is needed. It's not the 'pressure' of the oil that separates the bearings from the crank, it's the oil and its associated film strength. If the oil exit hole on the crankpin is in the wrong place the high thrust from the rod won't let the oil out at all.

Some thoughts on oil pressure.

Every engine has a unique oil pressure 'signature' dependent on the size of the engine, the architecture (size, length, shape, placement) of the feed galleries, the running clearances, number of oil-fed ancillaries (oil sprays, turbocharger, cooler, lines etc etc), the size and type of the oil pump. The free volume the pump is capable of if venting to atmosphere is huge, but restrict the exit orifice by putting a small pipe on it (ie: oil gallery) and you build up pressure in the delivery line. So down goes the volumetric flow rate but up goes the pressure, so you can see they are closely related.

I say 'up goes the pressure' but in reality there will be a limit on how high it goes dependent on the characteristic of the pressure relief valve and of course the clearances in the pump itself. On a wet sump unit, the oil pressure relief valve allows oil that is pressurised in the main casing - by the gears or rotors - to bleed back into the pickup pipe. Restrict the pump exit completely by locking it up or feeding to an engine gallery that is too small, well, something in the pump is going to break because oil is more-or-less incompressible and the higher the pressure in the casing the harder the pump is to turn. It was common in the days when oil pumps were driven off aux driveshafts for the pump shaft to snap. Restrict the cross sectional area of the gallery adjacent the pump and sure, you will get high pressure between the pump and gallery but the gallery won't fill (at all , or quick enough) because the volumetric flowrate is too small. By the same token, it's vital that the volumetric flowrate and pressure are high enough to keep the oil flowing to where it's needed, remembering that it's constantly bleeding out at the final destinations (bearings etc). That effect is know as 'bleed-down' rate. The response time between bleed-down and replenish should be zero, or the oil film is going to rub dry, but that 'recovery rate' won't be met if the pump can't keep up - because, say, the oil is simply too hot/thin (and lost its viscosity) or the pickup is feeding air/gas (oil starvation). Or because the pump is simply too small or the relief valve setting is too low and the pump can't deliver enough pressre.


Do you need volume or pressure? Well, in short you need both, but there is a finite limit to both given correct oil temperature and, ignoring power loss (which you can certainly get by forcing the pump to deliver too much pressure) going under/over that limit is likely to lead to engine failure in one mode or another.


GC
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

thanks for that. The car is now down in Devon in the capable hands of Sandy Brown. He's prepared many peugeot engined cars to race spec and was also concerned with the oil pressure. So I believe some investigation work will be completed while the car is down there to be mapped.
205 8v Track car
craigb
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by craigb »

Hi Sean , did you get any further information on the oil pressure issues, I am experiencing something similar . Although mine is going over 100psi when pushing on. Was cosidering trying a different gauge , mine is a Stack one , but the reading does seam to coralate with the low pressure light at 20 PSI.

Craig
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

craigb wrote:Hi Sean , did you get any further information on the oil pressure issues, I am experiencing something similar . Although mine is going over 100psi when pushing on. Was cosidering trying a different gauge , mine is a Stack one , but the reading does seam to coralate with the low pressure light at 20 PSI.

Craig
Hi Craig,

Good to hear from you. Was thinking about you recently, no nothing to worry about, just reminding myself to read up on how you were getting opn with your new longmans manifold.

Here is an update from Sandy Brown with regards to my oil pressure problems, and some work he's done.

My extremely bad luck is continuing, in that on inspeaction my valve train is in a complete mess. To such an extent I am speaking to both parties involved with the work, which includes going to see the main head specialisy tomorrow in person for some explanations.

Here is the update from the infamous Sandy:

It looks like I've got the oil pump sorted out. I've built a fresh one for you with the late spec 6 bar spring. The pin that sits at the base of the spring (shown in the yellow one) was absent and that may have been allowing the spring to distort and perhaps drag in the bore, ending up this shape (yellow one is the new 6 bar):

[attachment=2]springs.JPG[/attachment]

That might have prevented the relief valve from operating smoothly or properly. Hopefully it'll give appropriate pressure now anyway, time will tell!

There were some surprisingly large bit/shards of swarf in the pump gauze, which may have been there for some time. They wouldn't have impaired the pump, but it's not obvious where they are from, quite possibly from a previous problem.

[attachment=1]pump_gauze.JPG[/attachment]

I'm using the same chain gearing as before and a later (low mileage XU7J4) rebuilt pump.

[attachment=0]new_pump.JPG[/attachment]
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205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by Guy Croft »

That debris is not good. Soem of it is bearing debris. You can't assume it's old debris..

I'd suggest you inspect the rod bearings.

GC
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

Guy Croft wrote:That debris is not good. Some of it is bearing debris. You can't assume it's old debris..

I'd suggest you inspect the rod bearings.

GC
Hi Guy,
On the first track day out after rebuild there was significant oil surge experienced (unusual for this engine, and even with a proven baffled sump design) and indeed one bearing was needed to be replaced under warranty afterwards as well as the rings as a recaution, looks like maybe the swarf wasn't cleaned up sufficiently.

I have updated my webpage with more detail here of what has been found recently, not wanting to post anything potentially controvertial on any forum. You might find it interesting as it refers to a competitor head.

Sean
205 8v Track car
smckeown
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by smckeown »

Well i'd forgotten I actually had a track car when some updates recently came through from Sandy Brown.

To recap, it originally went down to Sandy Brown 8 weeks ago for a few niggles to be sorted and mapped on my new DTA ecu 8 injector setup.

While it was there and upon inspection Sandy recommended a few improvements/alterations be made to the head as he believed some areas could be improved on, as well as some areas him not being 100% comfortable with, especially in the wear shown on the head so shortly after reconditioning. Sandy didn't really have the time to perform the additional work, but he probably took pity on me based on my last 3 years of unreliability and agreed todo the work.

Firstly he decided the cam wasn't optimal for my intended purpose, Sandy obviously believes there is great potential in the existing engine/head so he recommended a change from the Longmans/PeugeotSport "max torque" to the Newmans PH4.

Then a new valve spring system was needed as well as replaced the worn followers, do QEP supplied their double valve spring system, an eventually due to parts availability, piper provided the followers.
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Sandy was absolutely adamant that there was more to come from the head, and recommended Mark Shillabeer @ SRD get his hands on it for some short side radias step removal and throat profile change.

Mark was very busy and it was a good while before he could return the head, this is how it stands now:
post_mark_ports.jpg
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With regards to the follower bore wear, it was taken to Pete Willis and the bores were honed. The head was also slightly skimmed, and as you can see from the first light skim pass, the head was proven to be slightly concaved.
head_skim_first_pass.jpg
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Finished head face:
head_face.jpg
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One of the issues for Sandy to overcome was to make the valve springs fit as the head has previously been machined to get the install height right, so Colin Satchell made up some spacers to fit the Catcams double valve springs.
spacers.jpg
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Ready to be installed:
head_parts.jpg
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So it shouldn't be too long before it's back in one piece and the mapping can start.

Sean
205 8v Track car
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Re: Peugeot 205 GTI 8v track/sprint car

Post by cantfindausername »

Looking good! Shame when things take a lot longer than they should. And I know exactely what you mean about almost forgetting you have the car. Currently up to 424 days since I dropped my car off for work to commence.

By the looks of things though yours will be back on the rollers very shortly which is great news!!

Looking forward to seeing results
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