'73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

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miro-1980
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Tom,

re 1973 Sanremo ....

Well I did not think about going to such length as replicating this car's left rear light , but for the sake of originality no measure is excluded ... (LOL)

BTW: the factory teams those days did resort to some unusual tricks and all played on the edge just to make sure they are on the top. Incidentally , with budgets of factory teams reaching F1 budget levels being there was a lot at stake and a lot to protect ...

So all these games were played not because the drivers (by themselves) were so ambitious and ready to kill to win but the bean counters pushing them to show return on investment. It was all business. This has not changed much, or has it ?

Well at least until 80's the rallies were fun to watch and one could see not 3 or 5 different car makes but more like 30 and each of the cars could be identified form a distance of 100 yards as all of them looked different had different proportions, body line ... Now at they all look like designed by the same accountant ...

Rally history is a history of people and the cars are but a necessary background.And the rally stories are stories of people ... Remember the 3 Minis and a Lotus Cortina being disqualified after winning 1964 RMC ... or 1964 Safari winner - Cortina GT being put on the roof at presentation of the winners ceremony (with disastrous results), after all world press published only pictures of Carlton ( which came second) showing how he rolled his Saab over the roof to get back on the road during one Safari (stage which infuriated the Cortina team) ...
1964-The-Safari-rally-2nd-Place.jpg
1964-The-Safari-rally-2nd-Place.jpg (82.59 KiB) Viewed 28555 times
Or entering a whole fleet of 124 Abarths, Statos'es and Deltas supported by an army of 400 mechanics equipped with all modern technical means including helicopters in 1974 Sanremo .... just to make sure the Italian crowd is too big for anybody else to win ...
fleet of 124 abarth at 1974 Sanremo .jpg
fleet of 124 abarth at 1974 Sanremo .jpg (40.24 KiB) Viewed 28555 times
From car swapping at parc ferme to installing tail lights kill switch to prevent the car behind from trailing you in the fog by your tail lights ... This and much, much more is a part of true rally history. In fact for every success story there is a second (inner circle version of this) story which is even more interesting ...

I find all of these stories exciting and fascinating. They prove that these drivers, co-pilots, mechanics, team managers were all human beings (with weaknesses , feelings and idiosyncrasies) - not just emotion-deprived robots.

Some of these stories will hopefully surface while building my 124 Abarth...

Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Original target car:

There are but few pictures of the car from the 73 Poland Rally:

Here is most of them :
124 Rally Poland 1a .jpg
124 Rally Poland 1a .jpg (62.25 KiB) Viewed 28546 times
124 Rally Poland 1 .jpg
124 Rally Poland 1 .jpg (70.31 KiB) Viewed 28546 times
124 Rally Poland 2 .jpg
124 Rally Poland 2 .jpg (64.46 KiB) Viewed 28546 times
124 Rally Poland 3 .jpg
124 Rally Poland 3 .jpg (88.58 KiB) Viewed 28546 times

Whereas the above pictures are clearly the Achim Warmbold car of 1973 Roland Rally I save serious doubts about the two below.
124 Rally Poland 4 .jpg
124 Rally Poland 4 .jpg (86.67 KiB) Viewed 28546 times
This looks to me live a 16 valve engine and it was homolgated only in on July 1 , 1974 by a homologation extension document nr (3059/10/ 7V. While this was essentially a gr. 3 homologation , but contained extensions for gr 4 as well ( "valid for gr 4 only" )

Note the Fiat Abarth 124 rally later homologation
124 Rally Poland 5 .jpg
124 Rally Poland 5 .jpg (108.32 KiB) Viewed 28546 times
This tank was homologated on October 1, 1974 by a homologation extension document nr 3059/10/ V9 as "valid for gr 4 only".

How could this be installed in a car starting in Rally Poland in 1973 ?

Wrong date of the pictures or the "Italian job"? This is not likely as alsont6he shock removal holes behind the rear window were also homologated in 1974 ( document extension nr 3059/2/2V though it looks very much like the car # 3 during Rally Poland 1973 already had these holes !

So, nothing is impossible !

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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Current state of the project:

What was achieved so far :
- front and rear black bonnets (just painted black pending getting a proper fiberglass bonnet)
- painted side stripes
- designing and placing all proper rally labels/ stickers
- removing the US bumpers ( 36 kgs )
- installation of Sebring Vitaloni wing mirrors ( two because I have decided to install the right one as well)
- installation of two pairs of auxiliary halogen lights (large Carello fog lights and pair of Carello Megalux driving lights)
- swithing to proper front blinkers
- installation of FIA homologated bucket OMP seats
- installation of FIA homologated point safety belts
- modification of half-cage to accommodate diagonal belt mounting bar
- installation of hard top (targa type)
- installing rear holding plates for the hard top
- putting in an Abarth steering wheel
- installing stronger calipers on the font and 256 disks ( still not vented but much better than 227's)
- replacing dash clock with oil pressure gauge
- minor alterations ...

The to do list is not s long but for many reasons constitutes a major task :
- changing rear lights ,
- removing rear side markers,
- modifying front side markers (blinkers)
- changing doors to AS
- mounting wide wings (under way)
- suspension ( getting and installing abarth independent suspension and brakes)
- engine: building a replica of a 124 abarth 1800 engine
- designing and building gr 4 tank

The last civilian look of my 124 spider was like this :
my 124  last civilian look .jpg
my 124 last civilian look .jpg (80.07 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
Ans this is the current look:
my look 5 .jpg
my look 5 .jpg (48 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
my look 4 .jpg
my look 4 .jpg (66.19 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
my look 3 .jpg
my look 3 .jpg (78 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
my look 2 .jpg
my look 2 .jpg (55.58 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
Well it looks like another never ending story ... to go.

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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Major progress : 124 abarth key suspension elements

How do you like these ?
REAR 124 abarth susp.jpg
REAR 124 abarth susp.jpg (66.52 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
Front 124 abarth susp.jpg
Front 124 abarth susp.jpg (47.42 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
124 abarth diff.jpg
124 abarth diff.jpg (40.05 KiB) Viewed 28545 times
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Hi

I have found a very interesting and extremely important reference to the week front suspension of 124 spider and necessity to strengthen it when rebuilding it into a track or a rally performance car.

It is a TR-Spider's comment to Simon's "Preparing my Spider 2000 for the Track" thread dated Feb 19, 2010.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2141

Ir is so important I decided to quote it almost in full including pictures.

In his post TR-Spider says:

...for further suspension improvement I recommend the front spindels + wheelshubs from the Fiat 125/132 (also used in 124 Abarth (and most likelyVolumex)).
These are longer and thus massively improve the camber curve of the front wheels. Bearings are bigger than 124's.

[attachment=3]Größenänderung IMGP1027.JPG[/attachment]

Then of course some strengthening of the front crossmember, otherwise you may not enjoy the new brakes for too long.
The design is simply too weak for todays sticky tires and braking power and it won't last.
Best to make the most stressed lower front bolts replacable. I welded in rectangular blocks instead of the stock tubes and some L-shaped stiffeners on the outside towards the upper fixations.

[attachment=2]Größenänderung IMGP0387.JPG[/attachment]

As you can see, I additionally take the force from the front bolts across via the sumpguard (maybe overkill, but the opportunity was there...).
On top of the crossmember, where it sits against the frame rails, I put in some larger overhanging plates, in order to prevent tilting during braking.

[attachment=1]Größenänderung IMGP0391.JPG[/attachment]

The lower a-arm can be enforced with a kind of a weld-in cup, doubeling the material where the bearing is bolted through and adding stiffness with the outside wall.

[attachment=0]Größenänderung IMGP0396.JPG[/attachment]


There are also very interesting descriptions and pictures on other important aspects turning a US 2.0 CSO into Abarth look, like info on the side repeaters, hinges, bonnets, dash, map light, etc., etc. Excellent thread. Very much worth studying in detail.

Thanks Thomas and Simon!

Miro
Attachments
Größenänderung IMGP1027.JPG
Größenänderung IMGP1027.JPG (55.26 KiB) Viewed 28529 times
Größenänderung IMGP0387.JPG
Größenänderung IMGP0387.JPG (41.96 KiB) Viewed 28529 times
Größenänderung IMGP0391.JPG
Größenänderung IMGP0391.JPG (60.3 KiB) Viewed 28529 times
Größenänderung IMGP0396.JPG
Größenänderung IMGP0396.JPG (47.16 KiB) Viewed 28529 times
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Guy Croft
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by Guy Croft »

The joints arrowed are rather weak, I would advise you reinforce them. Or fit rod-end bearings ('Rose' joints).

I had one fracture on my CSA, very scary.

G
Attachments
REAR%20124%20abarth%20susp.jpg
REAR%20124%20abarth%20susp.jpg (67.56 KiB) Viewed 29507 times
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Thanks Guy.

There will be a lot of reinforcements to be done. Your indication of week spots on the rear arms are most appreciated.

Incidentally, I have studied technical drawing for a CSA and CS0 looking for differences as well as potential weak spots.
Based on my experience with 131 Abarth suspension I know that front suspension was the assembly modified most often by homologation updates ( maybe except for brakes).

The crossmember - the lower and upper arms, the ball joints seem to be the most prone to damage. Their connetions must be really strong. Your comments about weak arches is very much an example of where to look for weak spots. In this case we will go beyond formally homologated reinforcements to whatever extent we will deem it necessary.

Given the pars I will be using have 40 year old special care must be taken to make sure this will be safe. I think we will X-ray the key parts at the Wroclaw Polytechnic Institute to assess their usability for motorsports. If any of the parts fail showing internal structural damage beyond repair we will simply make replicas.

Tanks for raising this issue.

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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Key differences between CS0 spider and CSA front suspension.


While differences between a stiff rear axis of the CS0 and IRS of the CSA are quire obvious , The front suspension differences however are not so obvious .

I believe the drawings below show it best.
CSA front marked .jpg
CSA front marked .jpg (54.22 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
CS0 front marked .jpg
CS0 front marked .jpg (50.49 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
Here are pictures of the key CSA parts in question :
CSA lower arm .jpg
CSA lower arm .jpg (23.5 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
CSA lower arm joint .jpg
CSA lower arm joint .jpg (15.28 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
These parts are supposed to be from a Corsa version , but I have some doubts

Note the picture showing cup reinforcement , but this is just a weld ed strip of steel.
Screen Capture #137.jpg
Screen Capture #137.jpg (44.3 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
The picture below shopws what seems to me like a forged lower arm - and to me this looks like a gr. 4 part
corsa lower arm  1.jpg
corsa lower arm 1.jpg (63.84 KiB) Viewed 29502 times
More to come ...

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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by TomLouwrier »

hi Miro,

I don't think the lower arm in your last picture is forged, but it is certainly heavy gauge steel and has welded on reinforcements.
Does anyone have a parts catalogue that states the part number for that 124 Abarth lower arm? I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere but haven't found it yet. It looks a bit like a 125 part but is not, because the spring rests on the lower arm (124 style) and on the 125 it rests on the upper arm. The 131 and later all have a McPherson strut with coil-over.

I'm quite certain that the 124 Abarth upright / hub assy came straight from the 125 parts bin. Ask Thomas / Spider-TR.

regards
Tom
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by Guy Croft »

I only have one publication that shows homologated parts and it does not show the front suspension.

There must be several variants of these tech publications around but I have only one.

These others however may be of some use..

G
Attachments
124 CSA_crossmember.jpg
124 CSA_crossmember.jpg (217.43 KiB) Viewed 29500 times
124 CSA_bashplate.jpg
124 CSA_bashplate.jpg (225.41 KiB) Viewed 29500 times
124 CSA_rear wishbones.jpg
124 CSA_rear wishbones.jpg (229.76 KiB) Viewed 29500 times
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Guy,

Thanks very much.

These documents reminded me I should have a folder with a pile of such Abarth service information sheets.

I dug into my Abarth shelves and sure enough I found it

Just skipping through the pile proved very valuable and produced showing among others :
  • the fuel tank
    front extension to the roll bar
    external oil filter circuit
    twin brake master cylinder assembly
    front and rear shock springs
    rear rear drum-in-disk hand brake


The sheers show numbers like 7/73 which are useful in dating these modifications. Interesting is that the numbering system is not simply sequential. There are many sheets numbered i.e. 7/73

I would read the as Service Bulletin numbers with each bulletin containing one or more sheets.

Incidentally I would treat these bulletins as announcements of commercial availability. After all the practice of selling performance sports parts wast the core Abarth business. Abarth was doing this for a long time after Fiat took over and returned to it with re-introduction of Abarth brand few years ago.
Abarth's flagship product "Casetta do transformzione" is now available for the 500 and the Punto.

It would make sens to expect that the parts were made available commercially almost as soon as they were available for the ex-works rally team and those teams that rallied these car as private entries.

What does it mean for the tank? As the tank shown in the service bulletin does not seem to have been homologated separately it must have been either a Stradale standard tank or was just an Abarth commercial upgrade product for those that had a normal 124 spider and wanted to turn this "civilian" car into a "rally" version. This needs to be further investigated.

Incidentally, I find such issues to be fascinating elements of the research accompanying building a replica.

May be this is why my attention to details ...

Miro

PS: Whatever the numbering system it looks like the rear rear drum-in-disk hand brake is from 1976 while the tank presented before was not the only safety tank for 124 Abarth. This tank service bulletin number is numbered 8/73, while the previously referred to gr 4 tank was homologated on October 1974.
CSA fuekl tank 7-73 0003.JPG
CSA fuekl tank 7-73 0003.JPG (93.72 KiB) Viewed 28798 times
For me, there are still many mysteries involving 124 Abarth .history ...

M.
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by mickwood »

Miro.
I doubt if there is anybody around who knows "everything" about these cars as it is certainly true that there was quite rapid development so the specification of each car changed from event to event.
…and tracking history is a nightmare as i suspect the factory swapped car identities (as they certainly did with the later 131s!)
The spec of my own car is generally much later (late '75 really) but i will help you as much as i can. The photos you show of rear suspension, for example, seem to have a mix of period parts and modern repro parts, and the period parts look to be a mix of Stradale and G4 parts.
As for reinforcing the rear lower reverse wishbone arms i would caution against buying old parts - this is thin wall tubing and rusts from the inside (like Guy - i had one crack) so if you are going to go this route, then new repro parts are the way to go.
The problem is, which design to go for? a) The Stradale design suffers from having too much rubber in the bushing which means that the rear toe in changes under load, and that is never a good thing! but b) equally I would not recommend using the gr4 version with the needle roller bearings: the problem is the tubing is so thin that it is easy to bend and then the roller bearings go out of alignment which then wrecks the bearing surface on the spindles.
I am thinking we need to re-engineer this arm a bit so the outer end can accommodate a slight bit of alignment change via spherical bearings. It is on the "project" list but a bit of a way down that list if i am honest!
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Mick

I am most interested in all these parts. PM sent ( re: non technical aspects)

Miro

Note : this post refers to a post on Eric's thread

To make sure there is some logic to these exchanges here are quotes from key posts made on Erics thread the precede Mick post aboveL

Re: Fiat Abarth 124 Rally
Postby mickwood » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:25 am
Re Alloy Panels on 124 CSA.
Door skins were aluminium obviously.
Over sills were aluminium
Rear three quarter panels (the ones behind the rear wheels and below the main body section) were aluminium.
….and that is it i think! - I have heard people talk of "aluminium scuttles" (the panel below the windscreen that the wipers go through) but mine is steel and i have magnet tested a couple of others and they were steel as well. Be interesting to do this simple test on Erik's lovely original and unmolested car!
Re: Fiat Abarth 124 Rally
Postby miro-1980 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:42 am
Thanks Mick,
I believe that with your input we have it all figured out ( allowing for some year version variations as well as not registered factory modifications... )
I agree that magnet testing Erick's car would be very useful.
On another subject :
How was the diff hung on the chassis floor ? ( like the 131 abarth ?)
What were the brakes front/rear? ( there must have been several setup versions)
Rte rear axis: any chance for dimensions of the gr 4 version.
Any and all pictures from you or anyone else who has one or had such pictures would be very useful as we are to "dry fit" the parts which are to arrive next week and these are the parts we are still missing.
Miro
Re: Fiat Abarth 124 Rally
Postby mickwood » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:30 pm
Hey Miro
I will try and send you a photo of the Diff attachment - it is pretty hard to get at as quite high up, but i will try.
Brakes - front were (from memory) 258mm diameter 20mm think vented discs, (homologation papers will have correct sizes) - Normally ATE alloy forged two pot Calipers (the gold anodised type as on RS porsche and 131 Gr4), but some later cars had 4 pot lockheed (never homologated and only fitted from '76 though)
Rear - (from memory) 256mm x 11mm thick unvented (again homologation papers will show) - the main brake used a Steel ATE two pot calliper. Handbrake varied considerably and i don't know what would have been fitted in '73.
a) Some cars used a small drum type mechanical handbrake, with the bell of the rear disc forming the "drum". I had these discs re- manufactured some years back, but (frankly) the mandrake is poor!
b) some late cars used a separate brake calliper mounted on a second set of lugs on the upright. For this you need the final type of upright but this was only homologated in 75
c) on some cars, this second calliper was mechanical, but some cars had another hydraulic calliper actuated by a master cylinder under the rear floor - This was never homologated but was certainly used on at least one of the late cars
d) some cars used an in line hydraulic handbrake working on the main callipers - again this was never homologated
Not sure what you are after when you ask for dimensions of the "rear axis"
M
Re: Fiat Abarth 124 Rally
Postby mickwood » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:47 pm
PS - i do have a number of parts on the shelf which might be of use to you in this project and which i surplus to my requirements, - for example….
a) i think i have a set of the correct wheel arch extensions (remember you will need to cut back the arches to accommodate wider wheels and larger suspension travel)
b) a pretty fresh GC built 8 valve engine which is built to look like a works 8 valve, but is actually much better than my original works engine. This is only surplus as i have gone over to 16v power
c) a set of built up 260mm x 21mm vented front discs on alloy bells - easy to machine down to 258mm x 20mm if FIA get picky, These are mounted on non period Alloy hubs.
d) i do have two new remanufactured rear discs on the shelf, but theory are my last two spares - i could find out how much it would cost to make some more.
Re: Fiat Abarth 124 Rally
Postby miro-1980 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:49 pm
Mick,
I do not want to steal Eric's thread , so I will continue on my thread : '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3278&p=22462#p22462
Miro
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Mick,

Thanks for your assistance !

Re: spare parts:

a/ wheel arch extensions. I have bought locally such extensions but want to have a spare set.
BTW : We have dry fitted extensions - I will post pictures. I would appreciate your comments on their shape and proper attachment to the wings

b/ GC built 8 valve engine: You are wetting my appetite. I want it ! All I have now is a stock 2.0 efi engine which does not fit my abarth project.

c) 260mm x 21mm vented front discs on alloy bells. Want these too. Machining them down no issue. But I think the RS 911 calipers I plan to use will easily accept these discs no problem. If I am right I probably not machine them down at all , or at lest initially. ( O need to get the calipers first and see how they fit. The alloy bells will be perfect and the alloy hubs will be of use as well.
  • Re: alloy bells : were they homologated with separate bells , alloy bells ?
    Re: alloy hubs : I do not have my parts in my hands yet (they are currently being shipped to me) but I understand these are gr 4 . which means the spindles and hubs use a larger wheel bearings. Are the hubs you have gr. 4 specs ?

d/ rear discs - I have none so I am most interested. If you could have them made I would be interested in two sets.
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Re: '73 Fiat Abarth 124 Rally - project

Post by miro-1980 »

Mick ,

I have looked up the homologation papers.

This is what it looks like :
Screen Capture #167.jpg
Screen Capture #167.jpg (85.46 KiB) Viewed 28779 times
The gr.4 all non-vented setup looks like both rear and front look like steel ATE.
Screen Capture #171.jpg
Screen Capture #171.jpg (123.01 KiB) Viewed 28779 times


The strongest gr4 front brakes were 256 x 20 vented and the rear 265 x 9.6 unvented.

These front calipers look like RE 911 alloy.
RS 911 .jpg
RS 911 .jpg (59.66 KiB) Viewed 28779 times
Hand brake:

1/ Inside drum hand brake was homologated in July 1974 ( extension # 9/10V)

2/ Hub carrier with a separate hand brake caliper disk was homologated in July 1975 (extension # 11/12V )
There is no data if this was mechanical of hydraulic ,though it seems it could be both , thus allowing either hydraulic or mechanical caliper to be installed.

This fully confirms Mick's "from memory" data.

The mechanical hand brake was homologated in the base model (stradale). I assume this was a hydraulic main brake caliper with a mechanical hand brake function.

Exactly as Mick said the in-line setup and separate hand brake BMC was never specifically homologatred.

There is also no sign of homologation for 4-pot Lockheed calipers.

Comment :

Looks like early homologation practices were "loose" without a very strong attention to detail.

Incidentally I wonder how will an RS 911 2-pot 48 mm caliper fit under a 13 " wheel ...
In my 131, which has 15" wheels these calipers would fit only with 35 mm distance plates (though the discs are are much larger : 295 vented) . We will see...

Miro
Last edited by miro-1980 on September 28th, 2014, 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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