My Lancia Delta Integrale 8V restoration project

[samo]

Thanks for the advice, I don't have a lathe myself so I have to find somebody that can do this for me...

A short drive today.

http://youtu.be/EfiM8XoPxg0

[Guy Croft]

mmm - Samo - do we start off in a dark tunnel??

I would find a willing passenger with some video experience if I were you!!

Hardly does justice to the car...

G

[samo]

I generally don't do filming and driving at the same time as I think it's kinda dangerous. But it was already late in the evening on a deserted road and in fact my hand shaking makes the entire thing look like i am driving fast. This was actually quite a slow drive by. Since the car has only 450km under the belt I am still keeping it under 4000 rpm. The boost is set to a safe 0,5 bar and will keep so until I've changed the oil, retighten the head bolts (and replace the headbolt washer)...

As I had the engine cut out last week I am for now not taking on any passengers until I am 100% sure it's safe and that I can promise them a round trip ;)


I still have an issue with the ECU that bothers me. I have the car working normal and tested on a 165 BHP Dedra turbo ECU and it's also running ok on a 180 BHP Delta 8V KAT ECU. But the one proper ECU that I have for this car is not working ok. I had the trimmer for the CO changed and the car now starts OK but it runs rough after that and doesn't respond to throttle. Will try to get it re-soldered to try and fix the fault. If anyone has a spare 8V ECU let me know. I know there are a couple of them on an internet auction site but I am not paying 400€ for a used ECU with no guarantee...

I received a few new bit's and pieces.

EDITED BY GC - READERS PLEASE NOTE THE WORD C-RA-Z-Y IS BANNED BY MY WORD CENSOR PLEASE DO NOT USE IT ON THIS SITE. PLEASE ALWAYS READ BACK THRU YOUR POST AND IF YOU SEE THE WORD 'UNACCEPTABLE' IN YOUR POST IT MEANS THE CENSOR HAS OBJECTED TO WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN SO PLEASE FIND ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING IT!

[tricky]

Does your ECU have the original chip inside ? Have you connected a CO meter to the tail pipe ?

[samo]

Does your ECU have the original chip inside ? Have you connected a CO meter to the tail pipe ?

The original ECU has an OE chip but I tried switching to 2 other OE maps and to 2 other modified maps and they all behave the same. No point in measuring the CO if the car runs so rough it looks like it's running on 3 cylinders... On the other ECUs it seems to run ok.

[tricky]

I was just wondering what prompted the new CO trim pot ?

You could always send it over to RP Labs and get them to test it out. I think they are in the links section of the GC website.

[samo]

There was something odd with the CO trimmer... definitely not OE, badly soldered on and unknown value. Now changed for a 10k trimmer like they should be OE.

I borrowed a wide band lambda hooked up to an exhaust sniffer that reads the AFR from the exhaust.

So after measuring under different conditions I have this results.

#1 On tick-over i get AFR of about 12-13.

#2 Low load constant throttle anywhere between 2000 - 4000 rpm i get AFR about 15-16.

#3 Partial load slow acceleration without boost AFR around 15

#4 Acceleration under boost (half throttle) as soon as boost starts reading out something on the dial (positive pressure) I get AFR 13-14

Comments please.... bare in mind this is measured at the end of the exhaust so the readings are a bit leaner than true value.

And a question about spark plug coloration... Look at the bellow picture and comment. The coloration is grey and the last 10km where driven at low revs, low load to allow the engine to "cool down"....

[tricky]

Plugs dont read very well on modern fuel (so I'm told) so I don't bother looking anymore, but it doesn't look far off the normal colour a plug should be.

[timinator]

Hi samo, most of your numbers look pretty good. At idle I shoot for somewhere between 13.9-14.2. The gray color is probably caused by your 12-13 afr at idle. Checking spark plugs on turbo engines is something you should due often. The heat range on your plug so far looks good, but you have not gone to full boost. The white porcelain doesn't have shiny metallic specks, but that can change at any time. Are your plugs new? They don't appear to be. Anyway you need to clean the ground straps to bare metal so you can see the heat mark on them to determine more accurately if the plug might be to hot for full boost. Be sure to put anti-seize on the threads.

I know every project has a budget, however with a turbo having an EGT and Wideband are extremely valuable. Turbo engines are like an addiction. It is easy to keep wanting a little more. Best to have a system that tells you when you are asking for too much.

Have enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for including us in the process.

[samo]

@timinator - the plugs are NEW and OE. They have done 500km as much as the engine. I have borrowed a WB tester to set up the engine and check everything is ok. I am still in the brake in period so for now i am just checking that i don't burn anything. Tuning will be done later and only once then left alone!

@tricky - i think you can still read spark plugs ok with modern fuels also...

I am receiving an OE ECU thanks to a GC forum member "tomframe" who decided to help me out. thank you Tom!

Does anyone have any experience with difference in readouts for WB if it's installed properly in the downpipe after the turbo comparing to being at the exhaust end? I think I am getting leaner readouts because of this also!

[tricky]

Maybe Guy can add something about that ? I was told that because fuel burns so much cleaner now than days gone by, you can't predict with any acuracy how far out your mixture is in terms of lean/rich.

[timinator]

I highly recommend getting an EGT. It is very easy to go from 900c to 1200c if you are only watching afr while changing timing and fuel. The added benefit is that you can add the EGT as a modifier(multiplier) in your programming. If the program has EGT feedback control it can add or take out fuel depending on the exhaust gas temperature which can be a big plus.

I find that locating the WB sensor about 1 meter from the turbo works best for me. Be sure to mount it in the top of the exhaust pipe since water sitting in the sensor will cause it to fail. This may require modifying the floor pan in certain cars. I believe that in the instructions of the WBs I have installed they suggest using a cooling tube or tower if the sensor is located close to the turbo. I am sure you will look it up on the internet.

Idle afr readings, when testing at the end of the exhaust pipe, do not seem to be very reliable. Just use your Colortune.

[samo]

Took me 3 days to fix the central locking... The amount of time a person can lose on the simplest of things is mind boggling! The central locking almost drove me mad as I double and triple checked every single component and they all worked. In the end I found I turned the motors the wrong way round and the leaver was about 2mm short. So if fired via the relay it worked but the key couldn't engage the motor enough...

RESTO TOP TIP #1: Before starting a restoration project be sure to shave your head (if you still have any hair on it) otherwise you are gonna pull it out when things go wrong.

Had a short victory ride after that but as the sky looked menacing and we had hail last few days I ran for cover...

[Guy Croft]

I don't like your spark plugs at all, far too much exposed metal and high thermal inertia - go to NGK B9EGV or even B10EGV. You won't have any cold-hot start problems and they will never cause ignition-related combustion problems.


Mixture:

#1 On tick-over i get AFR of about 12-13.
#2 Low load constant throttle anywhere between 2000 - 4000 rpm I get AFR about 15-16.
#3 Partial load slow acceleration without boost AFR around 15
#4 Acceleration under boost (half throttle) as soon as boost starts reading out something on the dial (positive pressure) I get AFR 13-14

I like your mixture even less. Lambda value of 1 is AFR 14.7. AFR higher than 14.7 is even less than stoichiometric (chemically correct ratio of air/gas by mass) and for best power you need to be lower than 14.7/1

Idle mixture could run at 14.7/1, depends if the engine is stable but once you drive off or on boost it will need to be way richer. Study the graph - mainly the region 3000rpm + that is what you should be aiming for. It is a competition engine so in this case the over-rich nature below 3000 or so is not really relevant. There is no difference at all betw the fuelling needs of a road car with turbo or competition car with turbo. Too rich and it will contaminate the oil in the sump and give bearing damage and also knock out the rings. Too lean and it will overheat in-cylinder and detonate. Typically the mixture under load is in the 0.86-0.9 Lambda which is 12.6 to 13.23 AFR. If you run an engine over-lean which I think you are it will detonate.

GC

[Urbancamo]

This in an interesting thing.

I see many turbo guys running their engines in 11-11.5 AFR under boost, or even richer! I've never understanded why you should run them this pig rich. And we are not speaking 500 bhp monsters, were are speaking under 300 bhp / 2 litre. Usually the comment is "to be safe" or something similar. This seems to be a common way to work.

Car manufacturers seems to set their NA or turbo cars pretty rich on full throttle to ensure that engine certainly isn't running too lean at any point in the lifespan. But I don't still get it why you should run your boosted engine with almost liquid fuel.