Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Competition engines and 'live' projects only. Good photos to illustrate your post are expected.
nabihelosta
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by nabihelosta »

Piotrek

DO NOT USE those cambox gaskets. I used two very similar ones, and although they were Spesso, they leaked.
Get all your gaskets from Guy. He knows better than anyone what suits those engines.

Nabih
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Guy Croft
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

Green is way too coarse for the aux d/s bearings.

I know English is not your first language (although it is very good!) But do not confuse 'bearing' and 'journal'.

The 2 liter steel crank (which has 5 mains and 4 big-ends - otherwise known as 'crankpins'), the cast-iron cams and aux d/s have 'journals' not bearings.

The crank and aux/ds journals run in 'shell bearings' which are made of a steel backing with aluminium/tin or other soft overlay.

If you are talking about the journals - green is OK.

G
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Hello.

We talked about cams for my engine and you told me that I should have 160bhp in this setup. In a few days I want to prep. my flywheel, because I found a reputable workshop, who really knows how to do it. They prep. a lot flywheels for many racing engines in Poland. But before this operation I want to know some useful infos.

1. My flywheel is a OE cast iron from 131 2L. It is will be safe in my engine ? Or I should look for steel flywheel ? I want to have a 6.2kg flywheel.

2. I want to check my FW for cracks, how do you do it ? I was looking for it on your site and I don't found nothing accurate.

3. Are the 215mm clutch will be enough for my engine?

I think it's all, rest of knowledge that I need I found on your site and I want to do it exactly according to your instructions,
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

cracks see:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1851

It is not worth buying crack testing materials for one FW - find a company that can do it with dye-penetrant. If they use magnetic particle method be sure to get the FW demagnetised afterwards!! If they don't have a demag machine do NOT use them - those things are very expensive.

FW weight see photos. This is how I do it - FOLLOW!!!

Clutch diameter - yes - definitely - if the clutch is an uprated one. Up to 179lbf ft torque with a GC Helix clutch you do not need a bigger FW friction face. Some folk fit bigger FW and bigger clutch from another model - forgetting that the springs and friction material are not robust enough for competition at any diameter! A standing start on a road-design clutch - will knock the torsion springs to pieces and burn out the facings. If you don't buy the clutch from me I cannot guarantee it. Miro tried fitting a Polish-made one on his GC unit and nearly lost his whole engine. The clutch exploded. He was lucky - and I had seen the clutch (painted red and yellow if you can imagine such a thing...) and told him to throw it in the bin. When the clutch explodes it locks up the FW inside the bellhousing instantly and stretches or snaps the cambelt - usually smashing all the valves into the pistons.

NO offence intended but - in future would you please acknowledge any previous reply by me before asking new questions - so that I know you have understood!!

G
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Lightened Fiat 2 liter FW_01.jpg
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Reground Fiat 2 liter FW.jpg
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Lightened Fiat 2 liter FW_02.jpg
Lightened Fiat 2 liter FW_02.jpg (442.99 KiB) Viewed 8660 times
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

I'm not sure that I understand everything but please tell me if I wrong. About flywheel, if my cast iron FW will be crack tested, fully overhauled and well lightened it will be safe and can be use in my engine without any fear about FW failure ? I had a flywheel failure in my motorbike and it wasn't the best thing in my life. My friend showed me an effects of flywheel failure in his Lada and from that day I decided to prevent any factors which may be the reason of this failure.

In many of text about FW lightening I read that I should balanced lightened FW with crank and in some text additionally with clutch. I understand that I must balanced it if that are mounted together. I'm right ?

About a crack test, I will ask for it in my university, maybe they can help me.

When I ask you about cams for my engine I wrote that I want to have about 155-160bph. Of course this is maximum power that I want for my car, it's only road car without rollcage, with particullary strengthened body, something like Lotus Lada (even engine setup is almost the same). So I ask you GC, to which maximum torque and RPM can be use OE clutch ? I must change a clutch because clutch plate springs are too weak ? Maybe a clutch plate from Croma 2.5D/Ducato 2.5D will be sufficient ? I changed the clutch in Croma 2.5D two months ago, clutch was the same like in 131 2L but clutch plate springs was thicker. But if an OE clutch or clutch from Croma/Ducato is too weak, is an organic clutch will not makes problems with use in traffic jams ? In my first post I writed that I driving my car everyday, often in traffic jams. Please forgive that question, but I haven't any experience with organic clutch.
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

About flywheel, if my cast iron FW will be crack tested, fully overhauled and well lightened it will be safe and can be use in my engine without any fear about FW failure ? I had a flywheel failure in my motorbike and it wasn't the best thing in my life. My friend showed me an effects of flywheel failure in his Lada and from that day I decided to prevent any factors which may be the reason of this failure.

If that FW is BALANCED with the crank there is no chance of it breaking on your engine. Actually I have never had a cast-iron OE FW break but on competition engines in any spec but these days since it is so costly to fully overhaul an OE one I do use only steel ones.

In many of text about FW lightening I read that I should balanced lightened FW with crank and in some text additionally with clutch. I understand that I must balanced it if that are mounted together. I'm right ?


FW and crank yes ESSENTIAL to do this because you are removing metal. And sometimes even the standard crank and FW can be badly out-of-balance. Remember also that parts like this change shape during their life and the balance done at the factory may need adjustment. Re: balancing the clutch - it depends who makes it!




When I ask you about cams for my engine I wrote that I want to have about 155-160bph. Of course this is maximum power that I want for my car, it's only road car without rollcage, with particullary strengthened body, something like Lotus Lada (even engine setup is almost the same). So I ask you GC, to which maximum torque and RPM can be use OE clutch ? I must change a clutch because clutch plate springs are too weak ? Maybe a clutch plate from Croma 2.5D/Ducato 2.5D will be sufficient ? I changed the clutch in Croma 2.5D two months ago, clutch was the same like in 131 2L but clutch plate springs was thicker. But if an OE clutch or clutch from Croma/Ducato is too weak, is an organic clutch will not makes problems with use in traffic jams ? In my first post I writed that I driving my car everyday, often in traffic jams. Please forgive that question, but I haven't any experience with organic clutch.


You can only put about 15% more torque thru a standard clutch! Maybe less...! The only difference you would notice from one of my uprated organic clutches is the pedal is a bit heavier - but you will quickly get used to it and not notice....


G
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Many thanks for your answers GC, now I know everything that I want.
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Hello again, much time has passed since I wrote something here :)
From the beginning of this month I started a practice in the renowned workshop in my city. Now, I'm hard work with my engine. In this week, I would like to finish all the work on my head. My head are now crack testem, everything is correct. New valves are ordered, old guides are has been renowed. At now, I have to modify SSR. GC, can you tell me the best SSR angle for 36-35mm Fiat TC head ? At now, I measure it and enumerated SSR for my head, but I would like to compare it with your experience. It's my first engine that I tune up, but I would like this do best, so I advise the best.
I looking for dimensions of GC Racing Guides on a GC forum, but I don't found it. GC, could you tell me, which guides I should to use ? I didn't found this in your book.
SIncerely, Piotr.

P.S
I forgot, the update about my engine with photos will be at the end of the month, so be patient :)
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

I MUST finish the final editing on the new book (this week) before I can promise an answer, sorry...

I will draw the SSR on cad for you and publish it, please wait for me to do this.

G
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Ok, I will be waiting for it with impatience ;)
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

well, Peter, thing is my trained eye can do it by memory after years of flowbench and dyno testing!

Translating it into something you can use is not a 2 minute job!

G
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Ok, I understand it, no problem. I'm very glad that you want to help me.
If it is dependent to the SSR, I recall that my head has 43.5mm inlet valves, of corse 36-35mm port.

Edit.

Today I measured my old intake seats, because I would like to install a 43.5 intake valves. According to this draw
GC 43.5
GC 43.5
Fiat TC 43.5mm inlet valve seat insert.JPG (108.83 KiB) Viewed 8207 times
I haven't place for a 45-45,5mm seat. At now, my old seat has ~43.38mm and I haven't space for bigger seat
P1020427.JPG
P1020427.JPG (124.71 KiB) Viewed 8207 times
Is there any way out of this situation ? I'm very keen on the head, this is my head from Lancia Trevi (36-35mm inlets), crack tested etc. Can I make a seat deeper and make a new valves respectively shorter ? Or is the other way out of this situation ? At now, I haven't any good TC head and I know that I have big problems to find it in Poland. GC, if there is any way to repair the head, please write me how to do it.

Sincerely Piotr.
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

this drawing (top right) explains how to do this - you need a soft material like my copper-alloy seat inserts so that the cutter can reface the head right-thru the insert if required.

You can of course put the insert lower than standard, it depends what cams and tip height you want on the valve.

G
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installation dwg 43.5mm inlet.GIF
installation dwg 43.5mm inlet.GIF (20.69 KiB) Viewed 8203 times
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Piotrek125p
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Piotrek125p »

Inlet cam GC IIIA of corse, such as you suggest. Is there a limit value as long as I can put lower new inlet seats ? Are you can suggest some ? Tommorow I would like to measure everything and calculate how much lower the seat must be. If only thing that I must to care with lowered seats are shorter valves, it's no problem. I would like to make a new set of valves, the shorter valve stems it's no problem.
I don't know that I understang correct this
Guy Croft wrote:this drawing (top right) explains how to do this - you need a soft material like my copper-alloy seat inserts so that the cutter can reface the head right-thru the insert if required.
That means that if I use a copper-alloy seat I don't have to take the seats deeper ? Sorry, maybe it's silly question, but my mechanical english isn't very good and I have some problems with the understandings of certain concepts (I have only translate.google for help, nothing best).

Sincerely Piotr.
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Re: Fiat TC Fast Road engine-a few questions.

Post by Guy Croft »

with copper alloy you can put the inlet seats wherever you want!

If you want to take advantage of the benefit of superior low-lift flow give them a 30 deg top cut on the insert - then they will anyway have to be cut way deeper than standard! The standard valve tip height is 40.5-40.7mm, with GC 3A cams go to about 42mm.


G
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