Cylinder head AX GTI

Competition engines and 'live' projects only. Good photos to illustrate your post are expected.
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FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

Hello

My project is a PSA engine:
Car: Citroen AX GTI
CC: 1360 cc 8 valves
Stroke X bore : 77 mm X 75 mm
Connecting rod length between the axes: 126,8 mm
Inlet valve diameter: 39,5 mm
Exhaust diameter : 31,4 mm

Modifications:
Pistons: forged bore 75.5 mm
Compression ratio: 11,8
Cam: 315º

And now my big problem:
Cylinder head modification.
I have a flowmeter, and never modify an engine difficult cylinder head so
CYLINDER HEAD IN FLOW BENCH
CYLINDER HEAD IN FLOW BENCH
test1.jpg (78.65 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
Original without modification : valve cylinder 1 ...., valve 39.5 mm, 30º seat
Test 2, whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º
Test 3 , whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º, and modification pipe and short radius(slight modification).
RESULTS FLOW METER 3 TEST
RESULTS FLOW METER 3 TEST
1BIEN.jpg (51.17 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
Any modification in the duct worsens the inlet flow.Pipe with many curves.
Any suggestions for modification this cylinder head?
I lost flow ,from 2mm of lift to 10mm . My camshaft lift max 10.84mm , then do not take advantage flow max of 12 mm lift valve.
I'm lost in this work.
cylinder head
cylinder head
cylinderhead.jpg (69.53 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
pistons
pistons
pistons.jpg (69.87 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
my flowbench 0-400 cfm meter, 6 ranges meter
my flowbench 0-400 cfm meter, 6 ranges meter
flowbench.jpg (66.05 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
205 rallye flow test  (cylinder head like)
205 rallye flow test (cylinder head like)
205 rallye test.png (89.01 KiB) Viewed 13314 times
I appreciate any help with this cylinder head modification.


Thank you very much.
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Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

I will take a good look at this.

Your first graph needs to be reloaded - part of the 'legend' explaining what is on test - is missing.

Please also send all your flow data in original Excel format as an attachment by email to me at:

guy.croft@btconnect.com

G
Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

I cannot overlay my data with yours - your format is totally different to my simple Excel one.

However here is my flow data. It is for the XSI which is similar(maybe identical) to yours. For those Peugeot experts I am useless with Peugeot numbers. All I know for sure is it was the head in the pictures below!

For a start I suggest you regrind the inlet and ex valves and seats to the same angles as I used, shown on test 14. The OE 30 deg angles are hopeless so don't waste time with them. The 70 will go too deep into the insert so the throat should be bore out parallel to give a parallel section and 70 deg section of equal height. The valve angles must be left sharp. I recommend you do the valve/seat ops and then retest to compare before doing anything else.

You should plot bare port flow - no valve fitted - so you can compare behaviour with valve in. You can see mine on the graph and yes in the case of this head - it flows more at high lift with valve fitted than not. This seems a ridiculous thing but it is true and some other designs like the 205 Peugeot can also exhibit that behaviour. There is clearly some turbulence over the short radius which disappears when the valve is fitted. Alteration to the inlet short radius by tiny amounts and testing every time with valve in can get rid of it but it is fantastically difficult to do and not frankly worth wasting time on. You would be as likely to wreck it as make it better. One thing you should be aware of is a porting 'golden' rule:

'' if you enlarge the port and the flow does not go up - the short radius is wrong''
I have shown below the optimum inlet port size.

A head prepped my way with standard valve sizes at 1360 cc is quite capable of over 130bhp on ITBs & injection, I do have full test data but it's confidential.

Leave the short radius and port alone for now. Hope this helps you some.

G
Attachments
XSI FLOWTEST.JPG
XSI FLOWTEST.JPG (75.53 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
short radius in finished state, you'd best just smooth this area and not modify it..
short radius in finished state, you'd best just smooth this area and not modify it..
XSI 1400 final, troublesome SSR.jpg (111.25 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
size of the finished inlet ports - this is right for that layout and valve size - no point going bigger. Note the general shape is as original - with swirl offset that gives fast combustion
size of the finished inlet ports - this is right for that layout and valve size - no point going bigger. Note the general shape is as original - with swirl offset that gives fast combustion
XSI 1400 inlets, 32mm narrowest dia, 85.6cfm bpf +12%.jpg (112.45 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
finished valve angles. The lower section must be ground or bored at parallel (or close to parallel) - a deep 70 grind without a lower parallel section would be hopeless for flow
finished valve angles. The lower section must be ground or bored at parallel (or close to parallel) - a deep 70 grind without a lower parallel section would be hopeless for flow
XSI 1400 inlet 45 x 2 x 70 sharp valve angles.jpg (118.56 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
modified inlet valve at right - 45 deg with a back grind (cannot remember the angle) to reduce the contact face width to about 2mm same as in the head
modified inlet valve at right - 45 deg with a back grind (cannot remember the angle) to reduce the contact face width to about 2mm same as in the head
Peugeot 106 XSI valve reground to 45 x 2mm (right).jpg (113.07 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
ex port - does not need enlargement - just smoothing and a bit of reshaping at the short radius at the valve end
ex port - does not need enlargement - just smoothing and a bit of reshaping at the short radius at the valve end
XSI 1400 exhaust port @ 68.4 cfm bpf.jpg (118.44 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
here trying to create a good curvature on the ex SSR region
here trying to create a good curvature on the ex SSR region
XSI 1400 modest exhaust SSR reshape.jpg (116.35 KiB) Viewed 13296 times
FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

Thank you very much for answering GC.

I used 30 º valve seats because they are the originals.
I am waiting for a cylinder head that I bought. (My bad job in this cylinder head, ruined this cylinder head)
A head prepped my way with standard valve sizes at 1360 cc is quite capable of over 130bhp on ITBs & injection
My calculations and hopes are at 120 hp, with the original intake manifold.
The intake manifold gets me in trouble. Decrease floe in 10% from 3 mm valve lift. ( add pictures another day)

Today add this my bad work:
Test 2, whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º, not polished
Test 2, whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º, not polished
sin guia de valvula.jpg (37.05 KiB) Viewed 13238 times
Test 3 , whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º, and modification pipe and short radius.
Test 3 , whihout valve guide, seat 70º-30º-15º, and modification pipe and short radius.
PB200054.JPG (60.26 KiB) Viewed 13238 times
modified chamber
modified chamber
camaras.jpg (61.69 KiB) Viewed 13238 times
whitout guide
whitout guide
conducto 34mm.jpg (47.77 KiB) Viewed 13238 times
Thanks
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FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

The new cylinder head
Flow data:
One is with original combustion chamber (red)and the other combustion chamber 16 º reformed (green)
One is with original combustion chamber (red)and the other combustion chamber 16 º reformed (green)
diferent ch 1 and new ch2 (Copiar).jpg (46.92 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
combustion chamber 16 º reformed
combustion chamber 16 º reformed
camaras.jpg (61.69 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
valve seat angle 75º X 31º (neway) ,combustion chamber original, short radius  original ,without valve guide
valve seat angle 75º X 31º (neway) ,combustion chamber original, short radius original ,without valve guide
flow max 30º seat (Copiar).jpg (46.36 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
Later, install new valve seats 45 º (insufficient money for now)

Now I'm worried about this:
BPF INTAKE MANIFOLD
BPF INTAKE MANIFOLD
bpf intake manifold (Copiar).jpg (47.87 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
INTAKE MANIFOLD ax gti original
INTAKE MANIFOLD ax gti original
PC010171 (Copiar).JPG (125.38 KiB) Viewed 13183 times


The intake manifold is plastic, impossible to change more than 2 mm (+o-) in the diameter.
PC010178 (Copiar).jpg
PC010178 (Copiar).jpg (124.11 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
cylinder head diameter 37 mm (original!!! no mod)
cylinder head diameter 37 mm (original!!! no mod)
PC010182 (Copiar).jpg (99.54 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
intake manifol original , 34 mm !!! no mod!!
intake manifol original , 34 mm !!! no mod!!
PC010183 (Copiar).jpg (79.81 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
The intake manifold does not fit with the cylinder head. INtake manifol original no can not be changed, cylinder head original ... any suggestions to solve this?

A curiosity:
Cylinder head original Citroen SAXO 1.6 cc, 100 cv , diferent combustion chamber and intake manifold
Cylinder head original Citroen SAXO 1.6 cc, 100 cv , diferent combustion chamber and intake manifold
PB280158 (Copiar).JPG (106.58 KiB) Viewed 13183 times
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Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

If the inlet manifold restricts the peak flow and can't be modified you really have to try and optimise the flow with valve-in in the mid-range, in other words make the best of what you have. Look at my graph again and you will see what I mean. No point chasing great flow over 10mm valve lift (approx) - too difficult to get the short radius right.

But - I cannot see you making real gains until you change the valve angles. You do not need to fit new inserts, you can regrind the old ones from 30 deg to 45 deg and the valves too.

I hope this guidance makes sense to you.

GC
FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

Hello

After a while,I'm with the project.
New cylinder head, not mod camber, no mod short radius, without valve guide:
valve seat 46º/75º (neway)
valve seat 46º/75º (neway)
finish modification.jpg (21.25 KiB) Viewed 13109 times
Flow max oe 10 mm : 76 cfm
Flow max mod 10 mm : 83 cfm
Increase inlet flow in 9% .

What surprised me:
Flow max oe 1 mm : 11 cfm
flow max mod 1 mm: 14cfm
Increase inlet flow in :27%!!!!


Flow max oe 2 mm : 22.6 cfm
Flow max mod 2 mm : 27 cfm
Increase inlet flow in 19 %

Flow max oe 3 mm :32cfm
Flow max mod 3 mm :36 cfm
Increase inlet flow in 12.5 %

When I have time I will put measures exhaust.
We continue to work.Thanks for help, Guy Croft
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Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

Nice work - well done.

Always nice when my figures make sense to another engine builder,

G
DamirGTI
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Location: Rijeka , Croatia
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by DamirGTI »

Hi !

Shame on me , I've just been working on a Peugeot 106 1.6 XSI engine few days ago , but sadly haven't made not a single picture of the project. I've prepared it for my friend for racing purposes ...

But Guy , I'm very pleased to know that I've done it just as I saw now on yours pictures ! Been concentrating on working on the same areas .. though I'm not an expert as you! But it's nice to know that I haven't done a "bad job"..

... I just wasn't 100% sure which valve angles work for this engine.

Kind regards
Damir
GC_32
FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

Hello.

After a long time. Start the engine. the cylinder head of the photos in this post, installed.
roller dyno test:
power and torque to the wheel, graph (power engine 114 cv and torque 12,89 kg/m)
power and torque to the wheel, graph (power engine 114 cv and torque 12,89 kg/m)
poweraxgti (Copiar).jpg (107.36 KiB) Viewed 12364 times
dates, test:
dates power and torke to the wheel. (sorry for quality)
dates power and torke to the wheel. (sorry for quality)
datosaxgti (Copiar).jpg (80.11 KiB) Viewed 12364 times
Right now, the unit is one Motronic engine original, modified. No maps for more than 7300 rpm.
We are waiting for a programmable engine control unit.
How do you see the results?
I'm somewhat confused. I am not surprised the power and torque. Is more or less what we expected.But I'm surprised the engine speed of max torque and max power. Cams 314º.
I expected max torque at 5500 rpm + or-
Next job, installing programmable ecu and increase compression ratio. Currently 11.2..

Any tips to increase the rpms of maximum torque?
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Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

I don't know near enough about the engine to comment yet. I do not have X-ray eyes!

1) need high quality photo of engine with inlet system and exhaust system. I need to get a clear idea of the layouts and lengths.
2) what is the cam timed at?
Guy Croft, owner
FACTOR_LAMBDA
Posts: 17
Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

Thanks for replying.
Guy Croft wrote:2) what is the cam timed at?
Cam Lift(mm) 7.62mm Inlet/Exhaust
Valve Lift(mm) 10.41mm Inlet
Duration 315 Deg Inlet
Timing 53/82 82/53
Full Lift Inlet 104 Deg ATDC
VC (mm) 0.25mm Inlet /Exhaust
LTDC 4.44mm Inlet
Guy Croft wrote:1) need high quality photo of engine with inlet system and exhaust system. I need to get a clear idea of the layouts and lengths.
This engine runs on GrA category. The engine has to follow the GrA FIA regulations .
It has an FIA homologation. , everything about the motor is regulated.
  The intake manifold and exhaust are origin by regulation
I try to get more photos
6.jpg
6.jpg (190.53 KiB) Viewed 11916 times
5.JPG
5.JPG (125.38 KiB) Viewed 11916 times
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FACTOR_LAMBDA
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Joined: February 26th, 2008, 10:38 am
Location: SPAIN

Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by FACTOR_LAMBDA »

exhaust manifold photos
2012-12-03 10.54.47 (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg
2012-12-03 10.54.47 (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg (131.05 KiB) Viewed 11886 times
2012-12-03 10.54.36 (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg
2012-12-03 10.54.36 (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg (132.73 KiB) Viewed 11886 times
2012-12-03 10.54.14 (1) (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg
2012-12-03 10.54.14 (1) (Copiar) (Copiar).jpg (141.9 KiB) Viewed 11886 times
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Guy Croft
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Re: Cylinder head AX GTI

Post by Guy Croft »

The problem may be the igntion timing - might need more or less advance but apart from that - with the regs - the only thing you can do is try relaxing the cam timing say to 106/108 or 110 inlet FL.

Assuming the intake is not restricted by the throttle body (I have no idea what you are using, all I can see is the intake manifold) it may be the cam timing you are using now (104) does not suit the wave characteristics of the header and inlet manifold runners.

G
Guy Croft, owner
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