1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

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1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:18 pm

First of all, hello everyone, I am a new member and this is my first post so I will say something about me, I am young (17 years old) and have very little experience but my father has a bigger experience as he had even a service where we both were working on cars, especially Italian , Fiat/Alfa/Lancia , my father’s first car as a beginner in 1991 was a beautiful Fiat 131 Supermirafiori 1.6 TC , after that he had an accident with the 131 (unlit carriage at night) the engine was intact no damage so he bought a 131 diesel body with a body kit similar to the Abarth one and remade the car , after that he bought an 131 diesel break , a 131 diesel Berlina that had problems with the papers , scam car unfortunately so it went to the crusher.

After that my dad came with the car this topic is about , a dream Fiat 600 , two bad previous owners - instead of appreciating a car with such great history and age they used to carry cement and all kind of building materials , the car was running but in a pretty bad condition , it was reconditioned once by me and my dad unfortunately with low budget and lack of parts. The car had a long time to rest , it was kept about an year in a big garage where my dad worked an than my dad had to leave that place when he was bringing the car home a tire exploded , he left the car at a friend that was close to the incident , and bad luck struck twice , some guys tried to steal my car and with the tire flat they pulled her from the front right wheel arch and did a lot of damage to the paint , me and my dad urgently went to bring the car home , problems never end.
In the place I keep the car parked there is a tree with fruits and kids climbed up and bent my ceiling , solved the ceiling but paint problems again!. Now the car`s sleep is about to end as summer vacation is just an week close, I will find a job this summer but I will make time for the car.
I am sorry if my little story is to long but I think a short history would not hurt.
I need some parts, pressure plate, first and second gear.

I need some advice because I talked to my father and decided to make some modifications as the Abarth has, eg: back wheel arch , but not as big as at the Abarth , change the 12 wheels with 13 ones , or just 12 but different , something racing retro , move the radiator on the front , some engine modifications , tractions parts , brake parts , at the engine modifications I want to raise hp but make life easier for it .

I want if it is possible to see how a original Fiat 600 Abarth is made, a few pictures and data, I want to know more about the 600 Abarth , what options I have on low budget so it will take time. After school ends I will make more photos of the car and the problems described , but I started the topic to get opinions of what I can and can not do to it .


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Excuse the quality , I have no digital camera and my good phone was in service , as I said I will make more exact photos of the car, but this topic will help me and my father to decide exactly what to do to the car .

I am sorry Guy if I have gramatical errors , I used a dictionary and got some help from a friend so I hope my post is ok .

A good day to you all .


Alex P.

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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to abarth modifications

Postby Guy Croft » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:44 pm

Alex, hi

sorry but I am no expert on those 'baby' Fiats, but my friend Tony Castle-Miller is, check out his website at:

http://www.racecar.co.uk/mbg

Tony is as close to a world-expert on them as you will find anywhere.

GC
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:56 am

Thank you sir , but one more question , someone recomended me to do an engine swap , the ohv engine from Fiat 127 , it is the same engine but more power , maybe you know more about the 127 , i am asking you this specialy because in the future when i have enough money i plan to make a racing 127 to participate with it(rally not track) , more precise to mout an Fiat 1.6 TC in it and with some parts maybe rise it to 180 - 200 hp , what`s the best body for this , 127 series 1 , series 2 or series 3 ?
And i am asking for a friend , do you know what compressor works on mercedes e280 (2800 V6) ?


Have a nice day

Alex.P
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to abarth modifications

Postby Guy Croft » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:50 am

Alex, hi

Twincams, superchargers, no.. keep it simple, your budget will be exhausted quickly enough! You need to get experience of conversions and tuning first. I like the conversion very much shown at:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=395

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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:08 pm

Sorry for the delay GC, I had a exam at my school and just started driving school 2 weeks ago ... so I'm low on time , the supercharger question was for a friend on his Mercedes. As for me, the plan with the 127 with 1.6 TC engine is just a future idea , that conversion of the 500 is pretty complicated , I like to be more classic and the ohv engine from 127 is perfect , 50 hp, a few modifications to raise it and that`s it , after that my Dad plans to change some things at the traction as the Abarth has , but he never saw a 600 Abarth so we don`t really know how the Abarth is... I do need to get experience of conversions and tuning , I found allot of interesting things here , I`ll learn by the time

have a nice day
Alex.P
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:22 pm

Hello mister Guy :D it`s a live project again , money problems and a big break up put me down for a long time , now im up again and ready to reborn the little Fiat , i have a dead line so i wont be posting allot but still , the car i hope will be ready for a show here in Romania , good day to you all
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby unomas » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:04 am

Hi Denver,

My name is Martin, and I live in Argentina. I`m telling you this, because like you, is on my plans to build an Abarth 850 TC Gulf.

I read your history, and I can tell you a place where you can find very specific and good information in this site : http://abarthargentina.mforos.com/
The only problem you will get in that place, is they talk (write) in Spanish ,not English. I`m not sure if someone of them are english writers capable. But you will find very useful infromation for each part of the car, and the most important, you will find the differences between the versions. There were like 5 versions of that car : 850TC , 1000TC , 1000TCR, GULF versions, etc...
Even there are people there that builds some specific parts of the engine, of the body, that you will surely need to create a good replica.

As you must know Argentina has a lot of 600D,R and S. And was really common to see in the streets the Abarth preparations.
That was because Argentina was a place where the abaths and Cisitalia cars were produced, and imported.

thank you.
Martin
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:55 pm

Hello , i did the bodywork , the car was present to the exposition , it`s not finished yet , it is a lil unique , not exactly the abarth kind , i have a problem with photoshop now so i can`t reduce the picture`s size , i hope i will solve it tomorow , and i have an idea , i am thinking of a swap with a 1.4 turbo Fiat uno engine , problem is the gearbox , im looking for informations right now . Hello Martin , thank you for the informations , i am willing of taking a trip or two for parts , the only problem remains the money but i will solve that to .
thank you Alex P.
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Abarthnorway - Remi L » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:05 am

Hi!


Sound like a really cool idea to put a 130 + hp turbo engine in the rear:-) but rather expensive, time consuming and very dangerous unless a lot of other stuff is done as well:-(....

A cheaper, easier, well proven and reliable option is to buy a decent 1050 cc Autobianchi 70 HP Abarth engine, take it apart and rebuild using good parts. With some headwork and a Fast Road cam, these engines will pull to 8000 rpm easily, and turn out a good 85 HP with the standard intake manifold and carb. Good complete exhaust systems are available to match the engine, and intake manifolds for DCDs and even split intakes for DHLAs/DCOEs are available. If You really want to have a go at it, buy an 8P head and 115 hp is within reach.
When that is done just bolt it to the gearbox and off You go!!!

85 quick bhp in a 600 kg car combined with good handling is seriously fun to drive, and these small cars will easily keep up with todays traffic, and even on race tracks against much bigger machinery.


Just an idea....


Best regards

Remi Lovhoiden


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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Guy Croft » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am

Some wise and constructive advice Remi - and I know how many engines you've built so you are speaking from experience..

Turbocharging?

FWIW - Over and over I hear 'bolt on a turbo' as if it were as easy as say, hanging out the washing to dry. It's not. In over 50% (HALF) of cases I hear of where amateurs have attempted to turbocharge their engine - it has been a complete disaster.

When I give advice on turbocharging there is always a 'sharp intake of breath' at the other end of the phone when I list some of the ops and parts needed to make this work. Then there is a 'calibration'....

As I now have stated on the GC 'How To' data sheet for gaskets and bolts.:

Great mysteries of the 21st Century!


“My head gasket has blown,” I am often told.


Apparently it is always the gasket’s fault…

The most common cause of head gasket failure by FAR is DETONATION caused, typically, by over-lean fuelling, wrong ignition timing, and overheating engine/intake air, too much boost, air intake sensor misreading...

Other less common causes are warped head and block, no locating dowels, old bolts, wrong head washers.

Etc etc etc………


Turbocharging petrol engines is fraught with hazard and at every turn there are traps for the unwary. You want to turbocharge? My strong advice is don't...


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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Denver » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:33 pm

Thank you for the answers , problem is , how much an autobianchi engine costs and where i can find one ? here in romania... i don`t know for sure if there is autobianchi in romania , i was thinking of the Fiat 127 engine two , the ohv one with 0.9 litre and 50 hp , anyway i want to make a great car of it , there is a huge problem no matter what engine i use... the gearbox and whole traction sistem , will they stand to a more powerfull engine ? and it`s the 4 speed one , if i will be 100% sure i will do the uno engine idea i will buy the engine first , gearbox , disc brakes , everything extra the car will need and when i have them all i will do the swap , suspensions , everything , if i started this modifications there will be a race car out of it , thank you again for the answers

thank you Alex P.
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby dflinkmann » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:06 pm

Hello Alex,

I am a silent reader of this forum, but I am very frequently logged in an read mostly every thread just to learn from others projects. I am not even familiar with fiat-engines as I am a Daihatsu enthusiast.

What I have read from you is gives me the feeling that you have to plan your car rebuild on a tight budget. If so, you have to be very carefully of what you really can spend this car.

First point: Safety - You can not save money on this, so you have to plan this in one of the first steps.

2nd: brakes and suspension. Eventually there are some parts where you could use other car parts which makes it a bit cheaper, but it should be something proofed to work by experienced builders. However sooner or later you have to invest quite a good amount of money in this.

After all of that you can think about what engine and gearbox would make sense with the remaining money to spend.

If you have to pay much money to get a rare autobianchi engine, it doesn't make sense from the financial standpoint, because you always have to expect a complete engine break down. Also a turboed engine like the Fiat UNO Turbo will be far over the top, as you have to invest into so many special and customs parts. Additional to this you will need an experienced engine tuner and dozens of dyno times, as turbo engines multiplies the overall costs.

What I would do is following: Check out what kind of engines you can easily get in your area. If you know that a Fiat UNO Turbo engine will fit, what about a "compatible" but normal aspirating engines, which costs just a fraction of the turbo engine and is eventually widely available ?

I assume you will find other Fiats which could be good donor cars for your project. If so, you can get "some" of a widely available engines and learn with them.

The 600D is a very light car, so when you find an engine running in stock with 60 HP, you have nearly doubled the Horsepower of the original engine.

Just my little opinion on this.

Good luck with the project,

Daniel
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Abarthnorway - Remi L » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:02 pm

Hi Daniel!


Good luck with Your tuning project!! Better to start with something reliable and easy - time and money goes fast when You try to modify too much.

You are worried about the cost of a Abarth a112 engine - Here is a solution:
The 903 or 982 cc engine from Uno, a112, 127 ++ is basically the same engine as the Abarth engine, and You will find them everywhere for almost nothing, and parts are plentiful and cheap.

Head:
1) Valves are the same size from what I have measured . Some people believe otherwise.....
2) Head design and ports are equal from what I have seen. Some people think otherwise.....
3) Only difference between Abarth and normal is a design difference around the intake valves in the combustion chamber - this is easily fixed by hand with some sandpaper and a drill - I will try to take some pictures - if interested - to show the differences.

Block:
1) The 903 engine have heavier piston rods compared to the very special Abarth version, but can handle quite some revs. The main thing is to change the nuts and bolts for better items, as this is a weak point.
2) The Abarth has a displacement of 1049 cc so a bit bigger, and a bit higher compression

Valvetrain:
- Equal except maybe for the pushrod length

Anyway - for a real budget tuning of this engine You need the following - (sorry Guy Croft...You might disagree on a few details...)

Find a 903 engine with not too many miles. They can run for a very long time without wearing too much!!
Take off the head.
Hammer out the valve guides and smooth the ports
Flow the valves ina a drill and a dremel tool
Find a way to smooth around the valveseat, and open out the valve seats to match the valves
Install drill and dremel butted bronce guides (do not cost too much in the states but need modified shape)
Mill the head approx 1 mm for a raised compression
Get a 32 DMTR (or similar from a small Fiat sohc) and buy a fitting manifold
Get a a112 abarth camshaft used or new - quite cheap
Get double valve springs like in Abarth - preferrably new as I have seen a few broken ones
Rebuild the engine with new rings, bearings and gaskets
Install and try to adjust throttle linkage/carb, and different water outlet in head needs to be dealt with if I remember correctly
Install or build an exhaust

When ready You will have learnt a lot about engines, and the engine itself will sound terrific, and beg You to drive it hard, These small cars are extremely fun to drive - never tried it in a 600 but in a a112.... lots of very pleasant memories, one includes successfully chasing a BMW 730 on a very twisty, bumpy small road. I had a good laugh to say the least!!

A standard 903 with 32 mm DMTR lightly flowed with standard camshaft and compression produces around 62 hp rumour says... that makes for a quick car! But with another cam and compression, I am pretty sure You will get close to a 70 hp ~ ABARTH and pull past 7000rpm (which should be a definitive redline or so they say....he he)

With this power You will easily beat most of the "smaller modern cars" which weigh 1000 kg++, and have a lot more fun while driving it!! It will be reliable if not overrevved too much, and use approx 5 liters of petrol on 100 km. Cheap fun!!

My definitive advice: Please do this first - do the Turbo version later....... if not I am afraid You will never see Your car on the road - seriously!!


Some pics of what can be done easily at home with tools like a small dremel and drill!! I cannot find the pictures of the rods or chambers - might find them later:


Image

Intake valves original/modified in a drill and a dremel some Years ago in a very cold garage.


Image

Intake port before


Image

Intake port later


Image

Exhaust port before


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Exhaust port later


Image

Combustion chambers and intake ports before - see the casting marks in the ports


Image

Ports and chamber after light touchup


Image

Deshrouding around intake valve




Good luck and Best regards


Remi Lovhoiden
Last edited by Abarthnorway - Remi L on Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby Abarthnorway - Remi L » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:09 pm

Hi!

.... And yes - the gearbox will handle the power, but get a good clutch:-)

Remi
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Re: 1962 Fiat 600D advice to Abarth modifications

Postby dp » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:33 pm

Slightly off-topic but the Fiat 600 was made in former Yugoslavia as the 'Zastava 750' until 1985. If you're doing internet searches for parts, that term might bring up something. Also the Seat 600 in Spain is almost the same thing.
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